TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

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tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:15 pm

I am very pleased to confirm I now have all the components for the CCT and can accept your orders.

The CCT will be available as a kit comprising:

Cast resin body
Plasticard roof
Etched brass sprung underframe with bearings and springing wires
A full set of castings including the usual underframe fittings plus Westinghouse and vacuum cylinders and reservoirs. The underframe is complete with brake rigging and shows the location for the dual braking equipment.

The CRA members price for the complete kit is £20 plus £4 p&p. I regret I cannot provide any of the above separately as I need to sell the complete assembly as described to recover the development costs. However I am investigating the possibility for a future supply of some the castings set which will be of use to anybody modelling passenger and coaching stock.

Orders should be sent to me preferable by email as I get confirmation of payment by this means, My email address is [email protected] .

Payments should be made direct to the CRA by one of the methods in the attached note.
Payments for True Line Models.docx
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Our considerable thanks are due to Ian Terrell who designed and arranged for the manufacture of the CCT underframe and other etches which will soon be available to you. Ian is writing detailed construction notes for the underframe which I will publish on the Forum as soon as these are ready.

I have written notes on the construction of a removable roof for the CCT following the general design and method used in my roof for the Drummond van which I will also publish on the Forum.

Inevitably there are some minor glitches in what has turned out to be a very long and at times frustrating road to get to this stage. A small proportion of the etched springs are victim of a small error on the phototool that means that they are not completely formed. They can be assembled to make a perfectly adequate spring in which the repair is virtually invisible but this does require a delicate touch with the soldering iron. I intend to repair as many of these myself as I can but if you don't mind a bit of extra work and can help me out I would be happy to accept offers from members who are willing to take these springs. I will provide before and after photos

And now for the extra bit! The castings set includes a sprue that comes from the London Road Models CR horse box. This includes some of the roof fittings for the horse box that are surplus to your CCT. There is a very nice McIntosh gas lamp top and if your want to negotiate with other me4mbers you may be able to accumulate enough of these to decorate a carriage roof.

I am sure you will find that this TLM project has been well worth the wait. We have a superb fully detailed body, a very sophisticated underframe and an excellent set of castings to complete what will be a very attractive model. I have attached some photos to tempt you.
CCT Underframe Forum.jpg
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CCT with underframe Forum.jpg
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Get back to me if you have any questions or need further information.

Tony B

Steve Parsons
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Steve Parsons » Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:31 pm

Please could you reserve me one of the True line CCT and supply me with more payment options either by this thread or in a format that I can open as the link supplied is not compatible with my old (ancient) pc which wont except the newer program Thank you Steve Parsons

Sinclair
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:10 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Sinclair » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:23 am

Here you go Steve - PDF version of payment instructions attached.
Payments for True Line Models.pdf
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Sinclair

Steve Parsons
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Steve Parsons » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:30 am

Cheers

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:47 am

Please note the £4 p&p should apply to any quantity so why not have another CCT or two

Tony B

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:48 am

A Roof for the TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

I provided pre-formed roofs for the TLM Drummond vans which I made using a two-part brass former I had made up many years ago. This was always intended to form roofs for McIntosh and earlier carriages and fortunately provides roofs the correct radius for the Diagram 3 vans. My article in The True Line Number 136 described my method for making a removable roof using the pre-formed plasticard roof as supplied. The GA drawing for the CCT confirms that the roof is 1 inch thick. The 0.3 mm plasicard I have used for your roof is as near as I can get to this dimension in 4 mm scale.

The roof for the CCT has the same general design of a base fitting inside the body with a longitudinal support for the curved roof. However this roof has a higher profile and is to a smaller radius than the van roofs and the body sides are significantly thicker which requires some small variations in the preparation of the base. I will supply roofs with the CCT kit but I can only make these in quantity to the larger radius of the brass former. The roofs I used for my CCTs were reformed to a smaller radius using equipment you should all have at home. This is not essential as the larger radius roof can be coaxed into a smaller radius when fixing to the base but it is very much easier to achieve a neat finish with a roof that is approximately the right radius.

I cut the roofs to the finished size of 35mm by 88mm and reformed them to a smaller radius using a wooden rolling pin. My one at home measures approximately 50 mm in diameter but anything close to that size will do. I made up a sleeve from a piece of thin plasticard to a larger width than the length of the roof and long enough to nearly wrap round the rolling pin. The sleeve is wrapped round the rolling pin with the roof inside and the two ends taped tightly together with sellotape. It is then placed in a large bowl or jug and boiling water is poured in to cover the sleeve and left to cool. The canny amongst you will be pleased to know that the sleeve is reusable and you can form 2 roofs at one time with it.

The base for the roof is made from 60 thou plasticard 27.5 x 83.5 mm. Clean up any moulding pips on the body and do a trial fit remembering that the sides of the body have a tendency to bow inwards and the top of the base will be slightly higher than the sides when the roof is fitted. It should be a tight fit but not so much that you have to force it. I also found it useful to relieve the corners of the base with a fine file as the corners of the moulded body are slightly rounded. The base can be removed by tipping it into the body but you will have to drill 2 holes in the base of the resin body, one at each end, to poke out your roof with a cocktail stick when it is completed with the curved surface.

The longitudinal support is 3.5 mm thick, consisting of 2 pieces of 60 thou and a narrower strip of 20 thou plasticard and is in the exact centre of the base. I filed a chamfer on the top edges of both long sides of the base to provide a larger surface for the solvent. This is also necessary as the roof overhangs the base by about 3mm on each side to clear the thick moulded body sides. The roof edges will finish up at the right height on the cant rail. There is also a slight chamfer on each side of the narrow top strip of the support to help maintain the curvature. I drew lines on the inside of the roof 3mm from each edge and 2mm from each end to aid positioning of the base to the roof. It is possible to adjust the position slightly after solvent is applied if you are quick. Do be sparing with the solvent. I wasn’t on one occasion and had conspicuous lines on the roof where it joined the base.

You should now have a roof that fits into the body and sits at the right height on the sides and ends to the moulded body. Some finishing with a fine file may be necessary on the roof ends to ensure they are suitably close to the moulded body ends. With care the roof can be removed with the aforementioned cocktail stick for painting and juggling with the weight of the body which may be necessary to get the best out of the sprung suspension. I don’t think I am going to the extreme of putting unwanted passengers in the van. I found it useful to mark the body and underside of the roof to replace them the same way round to maintain the close fit you should have achieved.

I have attached some photos show the components and a finished roof and a downloadable file with these instructions for those who have suitable computers.

Tony B
Roof Comps 1.jpg
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Roof Comps 2.jpg
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CCT 1.jpg
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peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by peterbunce » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:27 pm

Hi,

Here is a part of a photo of Camden Goods Yard, with the section showing, in spite of the big girder, which is the reason for the photo, a pair of CR CCT's

The left hand one is lettered, I think 'Motor Car Van', the crane is in the way! The letters 'T & O are between the pivot and a side casting of the crane, the letters for 'Van' are almost visible - the girder is in the way this time! The 'darkness' of the photo is an attempt to get some clarity. That vehicle could be one of the five that Mike Williams mentions on page 204, but I don't think so - the number has only 2 figures, a guess that the lettering is yellow, I do not think the lettering is wide enough for shading to it. .

The right hand one shows the right hand door also has a droplight of some sort - the colour is darker than the other photos I have seen so it is down; opinion is that the left hand door does have a droplight but does the right hand one have glass there that girder is again in the way - I do not know - generally I think the extra light given would be helpful (the Midland Railway for a start had two droplights - that being just an 'instance' )

Not shown, is CR 10, which seems to have glass in the LH door and something (solid opaque panel) in the right -they are different tones with the RH door being the darker of the two and like the tone of the rest of the vehicle.

The photo of the 6 wheelers Dia 83 does not give a definite answer: it appears to have droplight frames in all the doors, but that could allow for either choice. The early (john Boyle kit) those vehicles were 'coachbuilt, and panelled and had none.

I totally admit that I do not know, either way and as the resin body has 'a choice' with neither I think being known - so this is written to see if a answer is known droplight frme with a black (and thus opaque) or glass like the left hand one?


part of lnwr goods yard small.jpg
part of LNWR Camden goods yard
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The ventilators colour I think followed the LNWR/WCJS colours which were something like Pitch pine in colour - yellow base with a light golden brown overlay, and deep grey in the bottom (inside edge, the deep bit) to give some definition.

Peter

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:13 am

Droplights or No Droplights

Peter and I had an exchange of emails some time ago concerning what was in the doors of the Diagram 11A CCT. We don't have many good photos of these but to me the evidence from what we do have suggests that the left hand door had a glazed droplight. The right hand door probably had a droplight with a plain solid panel.

In the photo of No 28 from I believe the Caley album of rolling stock photos clearly shows this arrangement.
CR CCT No 28 Forum 2.jpg
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The photo of No10 which is to the right of the photo of Camden yard that Peter posted with his note reinforces this.
Dia 11A No`10 Forum.jpg
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And finally the GA drawing can be interpreted as showing that the left hand door of the far side of the vehicle has a droplight sash and therefore a droplight. There is nothing to confirm if this was glazed or plain.
Diag 11A CCT GA part Forum 3..jpg
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The photo that Peter posted shows a van with the right hand window open confirming that this was indeed a droplight.

Tony B

peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by peterbunce » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:17 pm

Hi Tony,

That is good, we now have an answer - Thank you for the part GA.

Were the droplights mahogany - looking at the CR coaches at the SRPS seem to be so, thus we have a mahogany droplight (frame) and a chocolate (painted) panel replacing (or as fitted) in the RH doors. I cannot see any horizontal bars on the window in the LH door; other railways did have them - just checking?

I will add a crosspiece above the door to keep the sides from warping inwards, which resin is always prone to.

Finally I said the other CCT seemed to be numbered '10', my apologies, looking at the photo from Tony it looks more like 10? the '0' seems to be in the centre of the narrow panel, so it is one of the later number ones on P204 of the wagon book,at the top of the page(100 onwards)

Thanks to Tony for the photo, which is part of a BR 'official' one, which I bought after the original appeared in the 'bookzine' on the London & Birmingham Railway.

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:48 pm

The quadrant next to the A on the underframe. Is this an an isolator for the air brake, and if so were they on both sides ?

I think I'll add one, but it would be nice to know.

The chassis is going together very nicely so far. Excellent kit.

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:43 pm

Instruction for the CCT Underframe/b]

As promised I have attached the instructions for the underframe etch. These were written by Ian Terrell who designed the underframe and did an initial test build. With Ian's approval I have made a small number of additions and clarifications based on my experience of building one complete underframe and a second nearly complete.

The photos below are also from Ian's test build. Ian's soldering work is lot neater and tidier than mine! I will post a follow up with further photos of Ian's underframe and after painting and attachment to the body.

I have a resistance soldering unit and found this ideal for fixing the springs and brake hangers to the underframe. I used 179 solder to attach the brake shoes to the brake hangers before soldering the hangers to the underframe floor and then 138 solder cream to fix the weigh bars to the hangers. If you leave the weigh bars separated above the axle you can just squeeze the wheel sets in after painting.

The brake equipment is a bit fiddly but you can see from the photos the location of the various components.

You will not need luck with this unit as it does go together well.

Tony B
CCT Underframe Instructions.docx
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Underframe 1 Forum.jpg
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Underframe 2 Forum.jpg
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Underframe 3 Forum.jpg
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Underframe 4 Forum.jpg
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tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:39 pm

Addition Underframe Photos
Underframe 5 Forum.jpg
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Underframe 6 Forum.jpg
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Underframe 7 Forum.jpg
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CCT 8 Forum.jpg
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peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by peterbunce » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:47 pm

Thanks Tony, that is very helpful.

Here is a quite terrible photo - taken in very poor light today of one of my pair, showing the approx CR colours; the painting is not complete!

My apologies for the 'horrible photo, please take it as a 'for info' only.
pix 1.jpg
CR CCT Dia 11A
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Yours Peter

Steve Parsons
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Steve Parsons » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:06 am

Great job Peter I fear mine is just going to sit in the to do pile for the next couple of years. may I ask what colours you used for the body and the vents.
Steve

peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by peterbunce » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:43 pm

Hi Steve,

The basic body colour is Burnt Umber, BUT is not complete as it will be a deep deep maroon colour, thus some maroon will be added to the burnt umber.

The vents - hmmm - said to be wooden, and I think that would be pine colour; so a couple of coats to get a light golden brown colour, then some thinned rust (like red oxide but its not - more brown) ink to darken it slightly and make it slightly different if you can for each set on (wooden) vents. They would have been varnished I think for protection. The colour is as the WCJS and LNWR used as well as the CR (for fish,milk and fruit vans as well as CCT's.

The paints are 'craft acrylic' and quite thin so a least a couple of coats will be needed.

Tony's method for the roof is quite good though the roof sheet is I think a bit wide - look at the photo and there is not much overhang either at the ends or the sides. I removed from each side 1mm strips; these were and glued on the upper surface -these will be painted brown, after the dirty (or Filthy) roof has been painted. the roof sheets are very thin - .015, so be careful with them. Download Tony's 'words and actions' and put it in the 'holding' container so you have it available when you start them, also put some 'T' handles there (4 needed) for the side and end doors, the RH blank panel on the side door will need some wire as well. Also some brass strip; one each end I think, for the lamp iron on the RH end.

I strongly suspect that there are steps (square in plan) above the buffer castings, with a turn down to the end of the buffer castings before the raised rib at the end, like John Boyle's CCT kit, now at Alba?

Attached is a section from John's instruction sheet
CR CCT buffer etc.jpg
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showing the 'step'.


Extra edit, Today I painted the 1mm strips at the long edges of the roof - the result is it looks much better. I was slightly concerned about the apparent lack of depth above the ventilators - it is much improved with the strips painted 'body colour. Below is the same photo as in CR Wagons but lightened to hopefully show more detail - like the rubber buttons for stopping the side doors hitting the sides, the end detail (look carefully for the steps below the end doors) hope it helps
CR CCT 28 (Small).jpg
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The writing in the lower right hand corner of the body (which can just be seen) is 'Load 3 Tons', and the label board is the same location on the other end.


Yours Peter.

jim mac
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by jim mac » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:13 am

Having followed this topic with interest, I was not convinced that one of the upper panels on the doors would have been of wood when the other was clearly glazed.
This image of the 6-wheel CCT clearly shows that the upper panel on both doors is glazed and if I were to build the TLM model I would follow that pattern.
6 wheel CCT.jpg
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jim mac

peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by peterbunce » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:10 pm

Hi Jim,

Nice, I am glad that you both found it and brought it to our attention; that is very helpful.

Interestingly are the spoked wheels, the Dia. 11A has the Mansell wheels; any idea when they changed them please?

Peter.

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:24 pm

Jim Macs interesting photo leads me to ask another question.

Were the D11A fitted with a visible handbrake, perhaps on the side opposite the photo? If not were the brakes arranged so as to be on with the vehicle uncoupled with some sort of brake release mechanism underneath ?

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by jimwatt2mm » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:53 pm

Not relevant to this thread, but to the one on mineral bogies. At the left hand edge of the photo of the 6-wheeled CCT there is a bogie with what appears to be the letter 'W' in the centre of the door. Could you get the photographer to move about 3 yards to his left and take a shot of that? :lol:

Jim W (with tongue securely in cheek!)

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:27 am

The photographer stood in the right place, Jim. The wagon is lettered 'LAW'

Best

Mike

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by jimwatt2mm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:26 pm

MIKEWILLIAMS wrote:The photographer stood in the right place, Jim. The wagon is lettered 'LAW'
So were some of the bogies lettered for sections in the same way as some Dia 22's?

Regards,

Jim

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:18 pm

The following is an extract from the forthcoming additional wagons book, Jim

The carriage truck was built in 1906, the same year as the decision was taken to remove the ‘bogies’ from revenue service. Many were sold to iron and coal masters, painted dark green and restricted to internal use. Is this wagon one such example, now the property of Wilsons & Clyde, which has somehow strayed onto the CR system?

Best

Mike

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:25 pm

A truly excellent kit, I really enjoyed making them. Many thanks to all involved.
D11a 31 small copy.jpeg
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There are some further pictures here;

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... ts-part-3/

Alan K
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Alan K » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:52 pm

These look great Dave. Well done.
One thing that's got me intrigued is that I'm sure I can see AJ couplings between them, but the end view on your blog shows coupling hooks. Have you found a cunning way to have both?


Alan

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: TLM Diagram 11A Covered Carriage Truck

Post by jimwatt2mm » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:00 pm

Alan K wrote:These look great Dave. Well done.
One thing that's got me intrigued is that I'm sure I can see AJ couplings between them, but the end view on your blog shows coupling hooks. Have you found a cunning way to have both?


Alan
There is nothing to stop you having AJ's and full couplings, hooks and links. They don't interfere with the AJ's at all, in fact that was my reason for going with AJ's, so that I could still have the hooks and links.
Dia 21 finished.jpg
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Jim W

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