Covered Carriage Truck

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tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:50 am

We are currently investigating the possibility of producing a CR covered carriage truck in 4mm scale under the TLM banner. The vehicle we have selected is the diagram 11A 21' 6" CCT as illustrated below. You will read in Mike William's 'Caledonian Wagons' book that there were a number of variations of these vehicles although they were the most numerous of the 4-wheeled CCTs. We will probably focus on the variant shown in the photo.
CR CCT No 28 Forum.jpg
CR CCT No 28 Forum.jpg (177.47 KiB) Viewed 39549 times
We are hoping that the body can be made as a one-piece resin moulding to which a roof will need to added. That is probably the easy bit.

To make up a full kit will require the usual set of castings for buffers, axleboxes and springs but we will also need to source etches for the brake rigging and castings for the dual fitted brake arrangement including Westinghouse and vacuum brake cylinders, pipes etc. We may need some of this to be made specially but I am hoping a lot can be sourced from existing manufacturers.

Obviously a project like this is only worth progressing if we have enough initial interest to justify the effort and cost involved. I think we need to have committed interest for at least 20 bodies to make the project viable with people finishing the model by sourcing the other components themselves although plenty of guidance would be available for less experienced modellers. For a kit with etched and cast components for a complete model will need a higher level of commitment probably to the extent of at least twice this number.

The purpose of this post is to invite to you express your interest and commitment to the project by indicating how many vehicles you would take and whether you would be satisfied to take bodies only if the level of interest was insufficient to justify creating a full kit.

Please contact me by PM or email at [email protected]

Tony Brenchley

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:11 am

I'm just about to send the pattern to CMA Moldform for assessment and pricing. For those of you who did not see it at the AGM, here it is, panelling courtesy of Steve Parsons and Ross Burns.

My advice is to order two. That way you will be able to see both sides at once and point out any inconsistencies in the bolt head positions.

Best

Mike
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Barry Rhys
Posts: 93
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Barry Rhys » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:53 am

MIKEWILLIAMS wrote: My advice is to order two. That way you will be able to see both sides at once and point out any inconsistencies in the bolt head positions.
Mike, my advice is to write another CR Wagons and NPCS book with photos of the other sides of all the wagons, then we can also point out whether the inconsistencies are in the prototype or the model.

Neil
Half Welsh, 100% Yorkshireman

Coronach
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Coronach » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:47 pm

Put me down for two, gents. Three if it's looking marginal!

Dave.

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by jimwatt2mm » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:48 pm

Pity it's not being 3D printed. Then there might be a chance of getting it done in 2MM scale as well! :(
Ah, well, back to the virtual drawing board (2D, for etches, only, I'm afraid. Haven't got my head round 3D CAD yet :cry: ).

Jim W

Jim Summers
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Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Jim Summers » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:53 pm

Count me in for two, gentlemen.

Jim S

dumb buffer
Posts: 477
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Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by dumb buffer » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:37 pm

I also would go for two of these

Allan F

jasp
Posts: 402
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Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by jasp » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:27 am

me too for two
Jim P

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:53 am

We are getting very near to the magic number which makes this a viable project. Mike has sent the pattern to the manufacturers for assessment and a quotation. I am still trying to source the bits and pieces for the underframe.
Tony B

John Lindsay
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Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by John Lindsay » Sun Mar 27, 2016 8:41 pm

Put me down for two also!

Cheers

John

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:54 pm

Ah, one for the up line and one for the down line. So count me in for two as well.

LarryC
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:28 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by LarryC » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:25 am

Guys

Two for me too

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:07 pm

Thanks for your interest chaps.

We have enough interest for this project to go ahead. Mike Williams is having to modify the pattern for the body to make it suitable for resin casting. I am exploring possible sources for the bits and pieces.

The white metal castings are fairly easy to source. However to complete the package we will need some etching work for the brake shoes and other brake rigging. This will be more difficult to source as it will require a new small etch of specialised bits. We could add the brake rigging ourselves if I can find a suitable source of etched or cast brake shoes plus hangers that will fit on to etched w-irons. D&S used to make etched w-irons with integral brake shoes but these have not been on the market for many years. MJT have some GWR and MR etched w-iron sets for 6 wheeled NCPS that have brake shoes which will mean ditching one of the w-irons. 51L have some cast brake shoes that might fit on Bill Bedford NCPS w-irons but I have not had chance to test these yet. Has anybody any other ideas about this?

A special etch could make a significant difference to the price and the time it will take to have the kit ready. However we could design the etch in such a way that the parts would be suitable for other dual fitted CR carriages and NCPS. Other than the brake shoes and hangers the etched parts we need for the CCT are relatively easy to fabricate from strip metal and wire. The time it takes to source a complete kit with special etch and the total cost really depends on how much you are willing to do yourselves to add to a basic kit comprising the body, a roof and white metal castings for the usual bits plus brake cylinders and reservoirs.

Like Steve Parsons I am hoping for a reaction! Let me know what you think.

Tony B

Jim Summers
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Jim Summers » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:14 pm

Tony,
I will pass the notion of an etch on to a (busy) etcher who already has etched brake gear in his catalogue.

Jim S

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:42 pm

If a brake gear an etch was available I would buy one , but if the numbers prove to be a problem I would still be happy to go ahead on a body only basis and fabricate the brake gear from bits .

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by tony brenchley » Sat Apr 30, 2016 4:01 pm

We currently have a friendly etcher looking at what we need. We also have somebody looking at our white metal castings requirements. My intention is that we will have a set of brake gear parts that can be used or adapted for any Caley Westinghouse or dual-fitted vehicle.

Tony B

stuartp
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by stuartp » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:26 pm

How long did these last in service please gentlemen ?

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:09 pm

'Nine received the first LM&SR number; the last was withdrawn in 1928' (Wagon book, page 204).

Best

Mike

stuartp
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by stuartp » Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:17 pm

Ah, thank you. Not long enough to reach Wigtownshire in the 1950s then !

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:41 pm

Looking at the picture at the top of the thread I can't see how the end doors could be used on the vacuum fitted versions. Were they just screwed shut, or was there some clever arrangement to fold the pipe down not visible in the pic ?

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 423
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Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:56 am

Screwing the end doors shut would completely negate the purpose of the trucks, Dave, so there must have been a cunning device to hinge the pipe. Unfortunately, the GA drawing does not show anything of the brake gear and associated pipework. A similar situation prevailed on the open fish and milk trucks that were dual-brake fitted. If you look at p.180 of the wagon book you can see that the vacuum brake upstand has a chain attached. I suspect that the pipe hinged forwards from the bottom to allow the ends to drop and that the chain held the pipe steady at the full extent of travel. There may well be a drawing somewhere that shows the arrangement, but I haven''t got one.

Best

Mike

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:33 pm

Thanks Mike, that pic in the wagon book shows the chain, I guess there was a pin on it which went through a hole in the bracket to hold the pipe vertical.

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Westinghouse and Vacuum pipes for CCT

Post by tony brenchley » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:31 pm

Re the recent exchange on the vacuum pipe we need a pattern for this and the Westinghouse pipe for the 4mm kit. Dave Franks has offered to make the patterns but has anybody got detail drawings of these or a GA that shows them? Failing that can anybody point me towards good photos? The Westinghouse pipe is not such a problem but the folding vacuum pipe was used on a very limited number of vehicles.

Tony B

IBrown
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by IBrown » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:50 am

I too was puzzled by the vacuum pipe. It looks pretty solidly fixed to one of the end doors, and the solution offered that it was a flexible hose just doesn't ring true to me, as constant bending would surely compromise the integrity of the material the hose was made from and given that the brake also operated under pressure would lead to its gradual but eventual complete failure. The presence of a chain reminds me that a more elegant solution existed at the time in slip vehicles, where an intermediate 'universal joint' was used between the coupled vacuum bags. Is it possible that something similar was used, chain operated, which allowed the upright part of the pipe to detach from the lower part when the door to which it was attached opened?

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Covered Carriage Truck

Post by Dave John » Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:50 pm

I had another look through the wagon book with a magnifying glass. ( Says how good a book it is that you can get more detail that way ! ) On p 200 there is an excellent pic of a diag 44 wagon which clearly shows the chain at the top of the pipe. Also shown is the lower part of the pipe, with a flange ( a swivel point ? ) in a short section running parallel to the buffer beam.

Not as good as a full drawing or detail picture, but perhaps another clue.

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