CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

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tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by tony brenchley » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:05 am

RY Pickering used the CR diagram 22 wagon design for wagons built for colliery owners and coal merchants. I have so far discovered photos of 2 of these probably originally from the HMRS RYP collection. These are attached.

David Blevins has kindly put together a list of RYP orders from his research in the RYP order books that he thinks from the descriptions are diagram 22 wagons. I have attached this also. David says many of these orders include livery, numbering and other information. He would be happy to pass this on so please email David at [email protected] if you want further information.

This list goes up to 1895. Later orders of diagram 22 wagons were built, see note on Dalquhandy wagon, but as these are described as "CR Standard Mineral Wagon" or similar in the order books it is not possible to determine if these were built to diagram 22 or diagram 46 specification. Perhaps you can all trawl through your collections of traders wagon photos to see if we have any more of either diagram.
Traders Diag 22 orders.docx
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Dalquhandy wagon Forum.jpg
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This wagon was one of two batches built to “CR Wagon Specification” by RY Pickering for Dalquhandy Colliery. The first lot in 1894 consisted of 15 vehicles and according to the RYP order book were numbered from 81 upward. This photo shows one of the second batch of 25 ordered in January 1897 and is dated 3/2/97. All these wagons were registered by the Caledonian and were painted brown oxide with white lettering. Note the brake arrangement differs from the CR pattern and the CR axleboxes with a RYP designation. No wagon numbers were included in the order as recorded but if No 56 was the first of the second order 25 more vehicles would take the number range to 80. Coincidence?

Bent Colliery Wagon Forum.jpg
Bent Colliery Wagon Forum.jpg (158.77 KiB) Viewed 33177 times
Bent Colliery ordered 100 wagons in February 1892. I have no other details and as the date of the photo is not visble on my copy I am not sure if this is an example of this batch and whether there may have been more after 1895. The brake shoe has a short push rod like the Dalquhandy wagon but seems to have a CR style lever pivot.

Happy wagon building.

Tony B

emckeng
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by emckeng » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:33 pm

Tony,

Your photograph of Bent Colliery Co No 560 has captured a rare beast. The fancy cast plate at the estreme left of the solebar is a Midland Railway Carriage & Wagon Co Ltd builder's plate. So this is a batch of wagons not built by RYP or Hurst Nelson which most of the Scottish traders' wagons of the period were. Bent Colliery Co wagon No 400 was the last of a batch built by RYP in 1891which sugests that No 560 was later than that. It was probably one of the batch of 100 wagons ordered from MRCWC in December 1891.

regards

Ed. McKenna

crabapple
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:53 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by crabapple » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:33 pm

Have a look at Virtual Mitchell under the subject of Smoke.
Various PO and CR goods stock 1910-12.
Hope to be a Glasgow.

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Dave Lochrie » Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:28 pm

From photographic evidence, other traders operating Diag 22 type wagons include Hamilton Palace Collieries, John Watson Ltd (in addition to the thrilled CR versions), Banknock Coal Co Ltd and Archibald Russell (though these map have been aquired via takeover). As an asside it is odd that the three trader versions of the NBR mineral proposed in 4mm by OxfordRail, for release later this year all seem to be for traders who actually used the CR specification. I'm aware that the two Lanarkshire companies also had NB connections and may have used the NB pattern as well but I'm certain R. Taylor & Sons Ltd of Dundee only had CR types, there is no shortage of traders who definately ordered wagons to the NB pattern.
This is a good time to remind modellers that POWsides http://www.powsides.co.uk/www.powsides. ... fo.php?p=1 already produce a number of transfer sets suitable for use on the Diag 22 bodies (as well as some suitable for relettering the NB type) including Wilsons & Clyde, John Watson Ltd and R. Taylor & Sons Ltd. These retail at 2.90 for single colour and 3.80 for shaded. But I should also like to point out that they also do commissioned transfers at 40 and 45 pounds respectively and transfer sets at cost (these get added to the range which sits at nearly 1000 wagons of which only a small percentage are Scottish).
Robert Addie & Sons 1396 copy.jpg
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Would anyone be interested in a project, I believe the trendy term for this is crowd-funding, to add some more. I already have the information ready to roll (complete with drawings, artwork etc) for the Robert Addie & Co wagon (see photo) but there could be some other candidates. I would also like to have some Banknock Coal Co wagons ( I am aware that the East of Scotland 4mm Group had these produced some years back but after enquiries the artwork for these has been lost). Obviously, the more members interested the lower the unit cost would be.

Dave L

Jim Summers
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Jim Summers » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:06 pm

I am happy to put my head above the parapet as a client for some, Dave.
I hand-did an Addie one, many years ago, and there are easier ways to pass the time.

Jim S.

Coronach
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Coronach » Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:26 am

Well, I'll jump in too then!

Dave.

emckeng
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by emckeng » Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:10 pm

Can I take this discussion away on a slight tangent? In the thread on Carrongrove Paper Mill under the Operation and Administration part of this Forum there is a photograph of a train of traders' wagons outside the Mill. There is group of Banknock wagons one of which may be a Diag 22 wagon - although I suspect that it is actually the NB equivalent. Whatever the wagon type my question relates to the livery. It appears that the letters in the word "BANKNOCK" graduate from large B getting smaller towards the centre and then rising back up to a large K. Was that actually the case or is it an optical illusion resulting from the presence of the horizontal top door hinge?

Ed. McKenna

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by jimwatt2mm » Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:39 pm

emckeng wrote:............ It appears that the letters in the word "BANKNOCK" graduate from large B getting smaller towards the centre and then rising back up to a large K. Was that actually the case or is it an optical illusion resulting from the presence of the horizontal top door hinge?

Ed. McKenna
They look graduated to me too, Ed, but we would need to see a higher resolution image to be certain.

Jim W

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Dave Lochrie » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:45 am

Ed, I like tangents.
That had never occurred to me but I think the background of this photo, taken near Denny in 1910 provides the proof, despite the poor quality. The front siding contains two Diag 22 type wagons, and one to the NB pattern, two are clearly Banknock with an enlarged letter B, the middle wagon is unclear but, I think is also Banknock but with an earlier lettering style as per this Tony B enlargement from a background. But look on the back row, the wagon on the left is also Banknock, with Diag 22 type cupboard doors, and there is no doubt that the upper edge of the BANKNOCK letters clearly form a curve, as if that isn't enough the much darker (or newer) Banknock wagon to the right has a 4th pattern of lettering.
The next is clearly HIRST after that I'm not certain, but the second line on the next wagon, with the cupboard doors, diagonal stapping and more conventional end door, is probably Lesmahagow which must narrow it down a bit. Could even be DALQUHANDY COLLIERY, which would bring the topic back to the starting point.
NEAR DENNY 1910.jpg
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Diag 22 8 Ton Mineral wagon Banknock Coal Compnay No 147 2.jpg
Diag 22 8 Ton Mineral wagon Banknock Coal Compnay No 147 2.jpg (56.48 KiB) Viewed 32996 times
Dave L

Ed, I'm about to reply to your email but got side tracked by this discovery.

emckeng
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by emckeng » Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:35 pm

Dave,

What a trove of treasures you continue to be. Your photograph is fairly convincing proof of the varying height lettering so thanks for that. Expect a PM from me asking for copies of the two photographs you have posted. I would not be in a rush to say that the wagons in the photographs are definitely CR Diag 22. They may well have cupboard type side doors but so did many wagons registered with the NBR and unless one can clearly see some unique identifying feature, eg Reg Plate, then an NBR 1887 wagon with cupboard doors could easily be mistaken for CR Diag 22 and, of course, vice versa. The fact is that the Banknock Coal Co. Ltd did not register any new wagons with the CR until 1907. It may of course have purchased 2nd hand Diag 22 wagons but the records are not comprehensive enough to say if that was the case.

1908 was a watershed year for the Banknock Coal Co. Prior to that it had operated only in the eastern (Dennyloanhead) part of Banknock Colliery but that year acquired the western ( Banknock) part of the colliery. After that time wagons began to appear with the "Banknock & Dennyloanhead" surtitle on the top plank.

With regards to the Lesmahagow wagon a similar ( maybe even the same) wagon appears in the Carrongrove Paper Mill photograph discussed on another thread. I have had a copy of that photograph for several years and have investigated the ownership of that wagon and have concluded that it is from Waddell's Dalquhandy Colliery. By the way can anyone confirm the proper pronunciation of Dalquhandy? I have been told that it was known locally as "Dewhannie" - can that be true? As a native of Fife I will trade the proper pronunciation of Kilconquhar which is about as far from the spelling as Dewhannie is from Dalquhandy.

Ed. McKenna

David Blevins
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by David Blevins » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:03 pm

I could be persuaded to join the Project and share the costs for the Transfers, the principle of providing Scottish Wagon Transfers seems a worthwhile Project to encourage Modellers.
I will be interested to see how we can progress this idea.

David Blevins.

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Dave John » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:56 pm

I too would be happy to join in and buy any sort of available transfers.

I need a break from track building for the new Kelvinbank layout, a bit of wagon building would be nice.

tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by tony brenchley » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:24 pm

Does anybody know of a photograph of a Wilsons and Clyde diagram 22 specification wagon?

Tony B

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Dave Lochrie » Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:40 pm

Tony,
I don't have a copy but RYP photo $ACQ301 represents one of the 250 supplied to Wilsons & Clyde (Douglas Park) in 1892 to order W0130. It is described in the HMRS phot list as dumb-buffered, 8T 4plank No2299 (which seems high) with brake on 1 wheel it is as yet unregistered and carries the paint date 17/06/1892. Its the only Wilsons & Clyde wagon that meets the spec but as Ed McKenna points out above I have previously incorrectly ascribed to Diag 22 wagons which whilst outwardly similar (dumb-buffered, 4 plank, cupboard door and outside framed end door) were not actually built to that spec and not registered with the Caledonian.
Someone will have a copy in there collection, I would be interested to see how the lettering compares with the Wilsons & Clyde, Netherburn, B127 transfers produced by POWSides.

Dave L

emckeng
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by emckeng » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:18 pm

WCC DouglasPark2299.JPG
WCC DouglasPark2299.JPG (90.07 KiB) Viewed 32706 times
If I have managed this correctly there should be a copy of Wilsons & Clyde Coal No 2299 attached. This is, as far as can be judged from the photograph, the Pickering version of a Diag 22 wagon. Unfortunately I am rubbish at estimating dimensions from photographs so I cannot say categorically that 2299 is dimensionally in accord with Diag 22. It strikes me that the brake attachment to the solebar is a Pickering version and not the CR version. A thorough trawl of the Pickering Order Book shows that few wagons were built strictly in accordance with railway co diagrams. The most frequetly varied dimension was the inside depth of the wagon. Giving the customer what they wanted rather than strict adherance to railway co. diagrams was clearly of some importance to Pickering. And the railway co's did not object for they registered the wagons. No 2299 was the first batch of 100 wagons Nos 2200 to 2299 built for Wilsons & Clyde after the company was registered in April 1892. A previous batch of 200 was ordered by the Clyde Coal Co. If I were to guess from the attached photograph I would have said that the wagon was painted grey but according to RYP it was brown oxide. Hmmmm. I have long given up trying to figure out the numbering schemes used by some traders.

With regard to the Wilsons & Clyde Netherburn transfer from POWSIDES ( and others) I should point out that Wilsons & Clyde Coal Co had no colliery at Netherburn until 1935 when they acquired Woodside Colliery from Brand & Co. That reduces the transfer's utility somewhat.

regards to all,

Ed. McKenna

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Dave Lochrie » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:16 am

Thats another possibility for a set of transfers from POWsides, but as Ed giveth and he also taketh away
With regard to the Wilsons & Clyde Netherburn transfer from POWSIDES ( and others) I should point out that Wilsons & Clyde Coal Co had no colliery at Netherburn until 1935 when they acquired Woodside Colliery from Brand & Co. That reduces the transfer's utility somewhat.
Oh B****!
Mystery wagon.jpeg
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So how about this. That it is a photograph (actually a gelatine dry plate negative) of a blackbird's nest is the only known fact, it was listed as such and taken in Granton in 1905 but I have real doubts over the date. I can't identify the wagon's owner, but though they are based in Wilsontown on the Caledonian, the wagon is registered in 1889 on the North Eastern Railway. The 10 Ton capacity is high for the date but the wagon has a steel underframe . I know little about the NER but Trader/PO wagons were rare, which is certainly confirmed by the 3 digit Registration number 957? when by 1889 the Caledonian were well into 5 digits. There is an owners plate on the 2nd plank but I can't read it. If plates were transferred, why use one from a "foreign" railway, or was it second hand or even a partial rebuild? How quickly after the grouping (which I suspect to be a more likely date for the image) were pre-group plates discarded or replaced?

Dave L

emckeng
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by emckeng » Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:50 pm

O.K.Dave, I'll bite. Nest building in or on railway wagons was not at all unusual and there was an annual "season" during which newspapers reported many such occurrencies. There was an instance at Berwick-on-Tweed in 1906 when the nest was moved by staff between wagons six times. There was another reported instance of a coal wagon consigned to Helensburgh on which a thrush ( if I recall correctly) had built its nest. The nest contained fledglings and the parent birds followed the wagon to Helensburgh and continued to feed their young. Thus proving that an NBR goods train did not move much faster than a thrush could fly. Coincidently, in 1904 a wagon turned up at Granton with a blackbirds nest in it. I don't think it could have been the one in the photograph for the report said that the wagon was NBR ( although that could have been journalese for "on the NBR". The wagon carried coal consigned for a Swedish ship and is said to have been lying in sidings at Heriothill for 3 weeks. Such efficiency in wagon use! I doubt that it was the wagon shown in the photograph for there is little reason to suppose that a wagon from Wilsontown would have been consigned over the NBR. Which brings us to the wagon itself. If the date of 1905 is correct the wagon was either from the Climpy Coal Co. or from William Dixon Ltd. If later than 1906 then substitute Coltness Iron Co for Climpy Coal Co. Very little is known about Dixon's wagons - I've never seen a clear photograph of one (that's a hint to anyone reading this) - for it is suspected that many were built by Dixon at Calder Iron Works. There was a firm in Darlington, John F. Wake, that was heavily involved in wagon hiring and it is possible that the NER registered wagon came from him. The NER wagon registers should tell all if they still exist.

Wagon register plates once fixed were never changed - think of the paperwork-unless the wagon had been converted or reconstructed. The LNER continued the NBR register No series right to the end but with LNE-B instead of NBR on the plate. The LMS seems to have had a system designed to confuse but did not go so far as to remove CR Reg plates. Many CR registered wagon were listed in the NB Register in the 1930s and they still carried the original CR Reg Nos. or conversion Nos.

All this has taken us a long way from Diag 22 mineral wagons. One can only hope that the diversions have proved of interest.

regards

Ed. McKenna

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Dave John » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:05 am

It is an excellent photo, I noted that there is some old lettering underneath the newer paint. Just shows as a shadow .

David Blevins
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by David Blevins » Thu Mar 24, 2016 3:55 pm

"CROWD FUNDING" wagon transfers.
It was mentioned by David Lochrie back in February about a possible project for Scottish private Trader Wagon Lettering/Transfers, has there been any progress in this or are we looking for Funding or encouragement.
I am willing to provide funding to get "Scottish" names on to the Market and I believe a number of others also showed willing but hopefully this posting will provide a few more Members willing to participate.

David Blevins.

Coronach
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Coronach » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:52 pm

I've already declared my support for this but I'll do so here again in the hope of generating further support.

theparley
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by theparley » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:10 pm

If this topic has not died a death, can I please ? :
(1) Add my name to the "Crowd Funding" (what a truly dreadful term) for Private Owner decals/transfers for Diagram 22 wagons ( which would surely suit Diagram 46 wagons as well)
(2) Suggest that an e-mail from the Project Leader to all Caley members, might be the best way to generate publicity and thence support. When numbers are known, a cost per supporter could then be evaluated.

Graham Tipple
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: CR Diagram 22 Private Traders Wagons

Post by Graham Tipple » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:40 pm

Rather belatedly may I add my name to the list.

Also rather belatedly, Isn't the Backnock wagon simply using the once common style of an enlarged Capital followed by regular sized capitals for the rest of the word. It is even offered in Microsoft Word. The 'Co Ltd' mixes one up by including the small 'o' and 'td' as superscripts (uplifted). The Wilson wagon in a later picture uses the same large initial capital letter. Great and learned discussions on this forum, thanks, Graham

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