TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

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tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by tony brenchley » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:18 pm

I am pleased to announce our new project - the Diagram 3 Drummond 6-ton van.

Full de4tails of the prototype vans are included in Mike William's Caledonian Wagons.

These vans were based on very similar vehicles built under Drummond's regime on the NBR. There is so little difference that our body can be built as either version. Jim Pairman made the pattern for the resin casting and built the trial vehicles shown in the photos. I have also attached photos of the prototype vans.

These are available as usual with castings sets for rigid underframe with axkleguards with springs and axleboxes incorporated, or for those of you who want sprung or compensated underframes with spring plus axlebox castings to use with etched w-irons. The casting sets are completed with buffers, scale coupling hooks, a single brake shoe and hanger and an etched brake lever. A roof will also be included but this will need trimming to size.

The price is £13 each with castings but a 10% CRA members discount applies making then £11.70 if you are a member. They are available from the CRA stand at exhibitions or from me by mail order, at 3, Spinney Road, Thorpe St Andrew, Norwich, NR7 0PW. Due to significant increases in postal charges I will have to apply a standard post and packing charge of £4 per order for delivery by second class signed for delivery. Payment can be made by cheque payable to The Caledonian Railway Association, Paypal or direct bank transfer. Contact me at [email protected] for more information.

I have very limited stocks of diagram 22 and 46 mineral wagons left. These will not be repeated.

Those patiently waiting for their Diagram 11A CCTs will be pleased to know I have the resin body mouldings and very nice they are. However it is taking a lot longer to source all the other bits for this vehicle than I expected. There are still major problems with this but eventually I hope to have a complete kit with an etched sprung underframe and a full set of fittings including dual-fitted brake components. Keep an eye on the Forum for news on this.

Some of you will know we had production problems with the first batch of Diagram 59 mineral wagons that meant they were not up to our usual standard. Mike Williams has had to make a new pattern and we will proceed with this project as fast as we can. Again watch the Forum for news.

Any questions or comments to me via PM or email at the above address.

Tony Brenchley
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tony brenchley
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by tony brenchley » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:20 pm

Oops - who can't do apostrophes!! Apologies Mike.
Tony B

Steve Parsons
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Steve Parsons » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:24 pm

They look good Tony put me down for a couple will you please and I'll pick them up next time I'm over.
Regards Steve

jasp
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by jasp » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:47 pm

Tony
The enlargements unfortunately show that my roofs appear to be debonding!
The master was made as the CR version and so the number plate is the wrong shape and position for the NB version and should be removed, which I omitted to do.
Jim P

Coronach
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Coronach » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:13 pm

Oh, I think I can find a home for three of these anyway! :)

Dave.

Steve Parsons
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Steve Parsons » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:47 am

Sorry Tony can you make it three not two for me as well. Steve

Alan K
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Alan K » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:26 pm

I can't find a reference to the longevity of this diagram in the Wagons book: would a 30 year life be likely? In other words, for my modelling period of late 20s/early 30s would any of these still be around?

Alan

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:42 pm

There's no reference in the Wagon Book re survival dates because no-one knows for sure, Alan.

BUT, given a turn of the century build date, and the fact that vans did not get used so intensively as mineral wagons, a 30-40 year life isn't out of the question. There is no record of them being replaced by CR Diagram 67 vans up to 1923. Anyway, one or two wouldn't loom too much over your Killin pug......

Best

Mike

Alan K
Posts: 305
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Alan K » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:40 pm

Thanks Mike. Sounds good to me. I'm up for a couple. PM on the way

Alan

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Dave John » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:15 am

Very nice they look too.

Request for 2 in the post.

Graham Tipple
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Graham Tipple » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:50 pm

Any chance of a couple to come down to Canny Shiels? Graham

jasp
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by jasp » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:15 pm

Graham
Suggest you contact Tony Brenchley
Jim P

peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by peterbunce » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:43 pm

Hi,
My pair of vans appeared today - this proving, I think, that the Royal Mail (2nd class service) was overwhelmed a bit over Christmas.

Very nice, though like a lot of resin open topped quite deep 'box shapes' when they cool there is some deformation as the top edges end up towards each other.

To rectify it I have left a couple of 2mm thick pieces of plasticard which are a close 'push' fit inside the top, do this with with care. There will also be some 'stiffening added inside behind the doors. And outside, under the floor, a piece of lead to add some weight Murphy's law says that fix it inside and it will come loose!

They will in due course be fixed there and a 'end to end' rib for the centre of the roof added on top. First remove the remnants of the casting 'nibs' though.

Don't for get to add a, on both sides a roof edge protector, half round in section I think, to the side above the doors: The strip is the light coloured piece between the doors and the roof edge in the lower photo in the Wagon book on page 157. That looks a bit thin, I have seen others occupying the whole space above the doors and below the lower edge of the roof. The should be projecting a very small amount past the roof edge otherwise the will not do their job!

A big THANK YOU to all concerned with the production of them - the result is superb, and the inevitable , and minor things wrong, they are not faults at all, but an almost inevitable thing with resin being used for this sort of shape.

I have, a long time ago now, already built one of these so I know just how much work etc is involved in them!

Now, for interest, I will build a 6 planks per panel version which has smaller(4 instead of 5 foot) doors for the opposition (NBR).

Interestingly these resin vans already have 6 (vertical) plank ends, but 5 panel sides.


Yours Peter.

jasp
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by jasp » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:50 pm

As the person who produced the master for the van, I understand that the NB had vans with both five and six panels.
The only significant alteration required for an NB version is removal of the oval number plate from the solebars
Jim P

peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by peterbunce » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:44 pm

Hi Jim,

As I say above 'Thank You' for your efforts the results are superb!

I strongly suspect that the variations are due to the availability of varying widths of timber.; I will be making a 6 panels & narrow doors NB version - for interest did the CR build any with the same (6 planks per panel, which would need the narrow doors, or it not known? With a :) :) they had every other variation I think! With possibly the extra as general service steel bodied versions

Yours Peter

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 423
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:48 am

Peter,

Bill Sewell (NBR Wagons, Some Design Characteristics) casts serious doubts over the existence of the six panel/4 foot door van which was described and sketched by Watson in the HMRS Journal. "While such a van may have existed, no drawing has survived and it is certainly not Diagram 156W.....The standard doorway was a nominal 5 feet wide both before and after 1890, so the layout as described (By Watson) seems very unlikely as applied to general purpose vans."

Sewell had previously stated that the original Drummond design (body identical to CR Diagram 3) was updated in 1890 by deepening the arch rail to 9 3/8 inches, bringing the overall height to 10ft 10 3/8in.

Best

Mike

peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by peterbunce » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:14 pm

Hi Mike,

J E Hay did a drawing a long while ago now, I have a copy of it. In addition I have from Tony Brenchley a diagram copy

Here it is
NBR Vans001a (Medium).jpg
NBR Vans001a (Medium).jpg (131.95 KiB) Viewed 33592 times
The lettering under the drawing reads as follows - 8 of these vehicles are running with power brakes, transferred from Coaching stock Dia 164B 23.6.55 (by the look of it, could be 05 instead of 55 perhaps). Vehicle with hand and power brake RHES & VB 710232 Only hand brake 723418 - possibly - the line runs through the number! On the right are a whole series of numbers, which are as the scan from Tony.

Perhaps this helps?

The 4ft (narrow doors) could be a pointer to their use as being 'Insulated' vans for some purpose?

I asked Ian Terrell about the 6 plank version, and hereis his reply -

Been checking through my drawings and limited photographs but all show just 5 planks with the exception of Thomas “The North British Railway Vol.1”.
Your attached drawing looks to be a tracing of this as even the Number 3050 is identical.
The only exception was in the Sewell wagon book and the “Pooley” van which is drawn with 6.
There is a note though that:

“...Watson, in his well known review of NB wagons (HMRS 1967) states that these vans (LNER Dia.37) had 4ft doors and six panels each side: a sketch is provided and this also appeared in Thomas’ book of 1969.
Dia 37 has been equated by others to drawing 156W (NBR Dia. 10). while such a van may have existed, no drawing has survived......”
(NBR side doors were normally 5ft+ across.)

I suspect the width of the planking depended on the availability and cost (and knowing the NBR probably the latter!).
However, as the broad planks were flat edged, they were butted against each other over a vertical frame member so six boards would require and additional member.

It will be interesting when the CRA 4mm model comes out but I think it should be easily convertible to the NBR version.


Yours Peter.

jasp
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by jasp » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:19 am

Peter
I have already built one in NB livery - have a look at the pictures in Tony's posting at the head of this thread.
Jim P

peterbunce
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by peterbunce » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:54 pm

Hi Jim,

I have a pair of the vans from your work; the one I will be building will have a six panels per side (of the doors ) so 12 panels per side; thus the doors will be narrow. I'm still interested in why they had narrow doors, of course they are required for the vehicle to be withing the standard size, somewhere there will be a reason, but at this late stage it could have been lost.

Yours are going to be CR ones, and are coming along well.

Yours Peter.

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Dave John » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:35 pm

Again, many thanks for making the kit Tony, and to everyone else for hints and tips. Anyway, mine are now in service.


http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... n-service/


Cheers

Dave.

jasp
Posts: 402
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by jasp » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:31 pm

Those look great Dave
Jim P

lindsay_g
Posts: 330
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by lindsay_g » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:41 pm

Looking good. Can you tell us more on how you make the transfers - in partic white lettering?

Cheers,

Lindsay

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Dave John » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:41 pm

Well, its not a perfect method lindsay, but here goes. The base material is crafty white inkjet transfer paper.

https://www.craftycomputerpaper.co.uk/d ... ecals-c562

I have used the white for wagon transfers and the clear for coaches. Over the years I generated in photoshop a couple of transfer sheets of all the lettering, number, CRs and stuff that I thought I might need. So I can print it out a lot and scale it all to fit, though I'm now using affinity which handles .psd files. The key here is that the transfer background is white, you print the brown bits round it.

Ok, colour. This is where I get Hoist by my own petard as it were. My method is to spray a bit of card or styrene the same colour as the wagon. Then I hold the card up to the screen and match the colour to it. Next print one out, and lo, it is never the same damn shade as it appears on the screen, so I adjust it and try a few more times. Really, colour is in the eye of the beholder.

( An aside. I live up a close, all my neighbours pop in to enjoy the trains. So I canvass opinions on colour. Dave the professional photographer upstairs adjusts the hue and density. Linda always wants to shift the shade to the red end, Bruce reckons it is always a bit muddy looking. The pup, which technically belongs to Linda but if its raining gets to walk me to Dawsholm shed doesn't really care but likes watching the trains go round. )

So having got the best match I can, the sheet gets printed. Crafty recommend you spray the sheet, but that makes it too thick, I just use them as is.

Next cut out the bit you want, and its waterslide, so in the water it goes . The backing paper on these is a bit heavy, takes time to soak. But when its ready to slide off have a pot of Decalfix to hand. With tweezers I dip the whole transfer in it, count to 10 then apply it to the wagon. ( yes I lose a few. ) Mop off the excess with a cotton bud . Leave at least 24 Hours.

The problem with white transfer papers is the rectangle where you have cut it out shows white. Hold your nose and spray some of the same can you used as the wagon coat into a pot, then paint round the transfer and feather it into the background. Sounds simple, in all honesty I have made a complete mess of that in the past.

So thats how I do it. Not brilliant, but given that CR modellers have a very limited selection of transfers it is the best we can do for now. I really like the HMRS methfix sheets, but I doubt they would do an extended CR only sheet.

I am more than happy to share any of the CR graphic stuff I have on file with anyone else, trouble is photoshop or affinity files are big and just won't upload anywhere. I'll try and compress one, worth a shot.
Last edited by Dave John on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dave John
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Dave John » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:50 pm

Ok, lets try.

I get the message "The extension afphoto is not allowed."

Hmm, I could shift to .pdf , but that would be useless , since you couldn't adjust to your colour.

I'll talk to dave upstairs and see if he has any ideas.

Coronach
Posts: 142
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: TLM Drummond van Diagram 3

Post by Coronach » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:45 pm

I've been putting one of mine together today and enjoyed the experience, thanks again for doing the kit, gents! The only arduous task was manually opening out the bearing holes on the springs to give the sprung axles a bit of vertical movement.
Looking forward to whatever comes along next! :-)

Dave.

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