Newcastle services?????

The day to day working of the Caledonian Railway Company, including its constituents and successors.
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Newcastle services?????

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

This is cropped from one of the St. Rollox photos of Buchanan Street goods depot

Any comments re left hand poster?

Best
Mike
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jimwatt2mm
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by jimwatt2mm »

I recall reading somewhere that a through coach ran to Newcastle via Carlisle. I believe the Caley also had an agent at Newcastle.

Jim
Dave Lochrie
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by Dave Lochrie »

As far as Goods and Parcels are concerned the Caledonian had its own office in the City from 1896 and Wordie & Co took the opportunity to expand south of the border, which they were usually prevented from by there reciprical arrangement with Pickforeds, official carrier for the LNWR. Newcastle was different Pickfords had limited pentration in an area dominated by the NER and their favoured carrier in the area Currie & Co. I have a copy somewhere from a Trade Directory with the address, and I have seen a photograph of the period frontage.
There must be WTT evidence of the passenger traffic to Newcastle, I have been told that the Caledonian had aquired though rarely exercised running powers between Carlisle and Newcastle as early as 1859, possibly in quid pro quo for access to Citadel station, though one would imagine this would not be a concesion the East Coast gave willingly!

Dave L
Barry Rhys
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by Barry Rhys »

Mike, not sure if you've already done this, but I expanded the picture on my screen and the sentence immediately below the word NEWCASTLE is almost legible. I believe it reads "AND SUNDERLAND BY CARLISLE". Okay, a little of this is assumption based on approximate letter shape, quantity and a touch of "contextual guessing".

Specifically, the 'LAND' of the second word is clear and the shapes of the previous 6 letters would definitely suggest 'SUNDER' - and of course Sunderland is quite close to Newcastle (at least in distance...), which is what I mean by "contextual guessing"; 'CARLISLE' was the first thing I noticed, and is quite clear; 'BY' was my first thought, although 'TO' would be another 2-letter possibility, but I think the second letter is more like a 'Y' and the overall message (ie. presumably, accelerated Caley services from Glasgow Central to Newcastle, not specifically to Carlisle as a destination) would make BY (ie. 'via') a likely option; and to be fair, the first word comprises 3 fairly unclear letters but 'AND' would be a convenient solution!

ACCELERATED SERVICES
GLASGOW CENTRAL
NEWCASTLE

AND SUNDERLAND BY CARLISLE

Too much guessing perhaps? Regardless, the photo with the bloke loafing around on the left, and the little kids on the right, is fantastic. Perfect for modelling, everyone in the ideal "nobody in mid-step" stationary poses. The little lad talking to his mate appears to have bare feet too, though obviously that's not certain.

Neil
Half Welsh, 100% Yorkshireman
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by jimwatt2mm »

I've just been looking at my Bradshaws April 1910 reprint. The 'Map of the Caledonian Railway and Connections' clearly shows the Carlisle to Newcastle line with the same heavy line as the rest of the CR system, as opposed to the less heavy line showing the LNWR line south of Carlisle. Quickly looking through the CR timetables, however I can find no reference to services to Newcastle. The main line timetable gives cross references to services south on the LNWR and Midland (to St Pancras) but not to Newcastle. Don't know if this proves or disproves anything! :?:

Jim W
dumb buffer
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by dumb buffer »

From comments elsewhere on this forum (see "Wandering Coaches") it seems there was good cooperation between the NER and the CR. Presumably this would extend to facilitating good connections at Carlisle, but from the evidence it doesn't seem to have extended to the running of through coaches. Would there have been any issue about clearances for NER stock in Scotland? I would suppose that the somewhat fragile relationship between the NER and the NBR might also have been an issue.

Allan F
Jim Summers
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by Jim Summers »

At the Newcastle Exhibition in November I was talking to Paul Smith, who was exhibiting his beautiful 7mm Caledonian wagons.

Paul is a great NBRSG researcher and published (in the NB Journal) his findings on the NB offices in Newcastle. He told me he is well forward with an article on the Caledonian in Newcastle, with pictures to prove what he said was much more an everyday thing than folk had assumed.

Naturally I encouraged him to submit it to The True Line, when complete.

Jim S
tony brenchley
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by tony brenchley »

Where do I get the casting of the porter propping up the poster board?

Tony B
wsaxt04
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Re: WCJS traffic canvassers

Post by wsaxt04 »

Hi everyone,

Many years ago I carried out extensive work on the WCJS Minutes held within 'NAS', Edinburgh.

According to details of one entry for 'Meeting of Principal Officers', held at Preston on 10 February 1893, under Item No. 2545 which was entitled as, 'Inspection of West Coast Agencies at Newcaste, Sunderland, West Hartlepool and Middlesborough' : traffic canvassers, working under the direction/employment of WCJS, were based at these locations, along with related offices & office staff, presumably to work to direct traffic to WCJS services and away from rival ECJS operations. Regretfully, however, I cannot provdie more exact details of the location of these offices & no. of staff involved.

Obviously WCJS had traffic canvassers at a variety of locations in Scotland : Ayr, Kilmarnock, Perth, Stirling, Aberdeen and Oban, and elsewhere. Likewise, after the opening of the rival Midland Railway route to/from Scotland using the Settle & Carlisle Railway in 1876, the WCJS Minutes are peppered with efforts to divert traffic away from the Midland/G&SWR/NBR spehere of operations.

regards

Arnold T
wellington
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by wellington »

I have been following the discussions about the Caledonian services to Newcastle with some interest. i mentioned to Jim Summers in November that I am researching the Caledonian railway services into Newcastle, little knowing that some have already ventured along the route, the story is very interesting as the Caledonian services on certain weekends even brought Caledonian locomotives in to Newcastle this has proved a stumbling point for a while as the more I seemed to dig the more I turned up. The article I hope to send to the editor may be a bit of an eye opener as the Caledonian had a huge influence on Tyneside.
Peter Scott
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by Peter Scott »

Going along the "map trail", I have browsed my copy of "British Railway Maps of Yesteryear", Ian Allan, 1991. On the main map of the Caley in Scotland, the line to Newcastle is indeed the same thickness as the route to Penrith & beyond. On the inset map of connections in England & Wales, the WCML to Euston, and the North Wales line from Crewe to Holyhead, are drawn thicker than other railways. Now the route from Newcastle to Leeds [via Harrogate], is shown to be principal route from Carlisle [& beyond] to Leeds! And as an example of "selective cartography", the Settle & Carlisle line is omitted completely! There is no date on the map itself, but the adjacent Timetable cover, is dated from 6th February 1922. The inference seems to be, if as a passenger, you do need to change trains and Railways at Carlisle, then the NER should be your "preferrred option".
Peter Scott
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by Peter Scott »

A bit of cross referencing. Jim Mac's post of 26th Jan, on "Carstairs - a Suitable Case for Treatment?", attaches 2 timetable extracts of 1852, one for Glasgow, one for Edinburgh. And on both, Newcastle is shown as a connectional location at Carlisle. Interestingly, Bradford is shown on the Edinburgh extract [along with Colne & Skipton], but there is no reference to Leeds on either!
Peter Scott
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by Peter Scott »

Beginning to wonder whether the heading should now be "Newcastle Facilities"? But this has only become apparent as the item has evolved.
I have now safely received my copy of the Caley Chronology; and the link appears to be historically more with the Newcastle & Carlisle Railway, rather than the fully amalgamated North Eastern Railway. And it would be to do with the access to Citadel Station in Carlisle. But the nature of those facilities, would presumably been to do with what the N & C could offer the Caledonian at Newcastle, in return for that access in Carlisle.
This is an interim post - more time needs to be spent poring over 98 pages of script!
Peter Scott
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by Peter Scott »

That the Caledonian Railway was “interested” in Newcastle-upon-Tyne cannot be denied, but its aspirations would undoubtedly have changed over the years, as events beyond its own control unfolded. But one always has to bear in mind that the Caledonian’s original interest was a passive one; it was the Newcastle & Carlisle who coveted something which the Caley could offer, namely access to Citadel Station in Carlisle. This was granted in an Agreement dated 14 May 1862. The fact that the Newcastle & Carlisle amalgamated with the North Eastern in that same year, and the North Eastern only started running into Citadel from 1 Jan 1863, only act as a smoke-screen; the Agreement was drafted with the N. & C., and would remain as if it were still with the Newcastle & Carlisle, in perpetuity.
So what would the N. & C. be able to offer the Caledonian Railway? Without the Agreement in front of us, we can only speculate. The Agreement has “Facilities to Caledonian Company” in its title. Full blown Running Powers would have been unlikely; more “agreeable” would have been undertakings to direct traffic along this route of common interest; Newcastle – Carlisle – Glasgow. The Edinburgh & Glasgow only amalgamated with the North British three years after this, in 1865; so through Carlisle would have been just as natural an artery as via Edinburgh, for Glasgow to Newcastle traffic in 1862.
The Caledonian Chronology, which is dated 1902, makes 2 references to the matter. In December 1896, the Caledonian made an Application to the Railway Commissioners, “to ordain the North Eastern Company to allow the Caledonian to use powers obtained in 1862 at Newcastle, and asking running powers”, was served. On 23 Dec 1897 & 6 Jan 1898, “Arrangement come to with North Eastern Company, in regard to Caledonian Company’s rights at Newcastle – [Arrangement to apply from 1 June 1895, for five years from that date, and afterwards to be subject to six months’ notice]”.
And that is the last time the matter is mentioned. There may be updates to the 1896/7/8 items, but the Chronology was essentially completed in 1902. What the notes above confirm is, yes, the Caledonian Railway did have some kind of “handle” on Newcastle-upon-Tyne, but the precise nature of it still remains for further research and study.
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

The attached poster dates from 1912. The Glasgow trains in question were the main line trains composed of West Coast Joint Stock. I haven't seen a 1912 carriage marshalling circular, but the 1913 one doesn't mention any CR coaches to be sent to Newcastle. It must mean that there was a NER connection tied in to every arrival at Carlisle, and that there was a through ticketing facility

Best

Mike
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caley739
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by caley739 »

Over a year ago I bought Volumes 1to3 of The Railway Magazine covering period July 1897 to December 1898 and have only recently got round to reading through them.Hard going it has been at times too!!

An article of some relevance to this thread appears in October 1898 issue,"Notes on The Summer trains of 1898" by W J Scott.
Under NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY. "Through coaches now run twice a day between Newcastle and the Central Station,Glasgow,with very sharp and good connections at Carlisle",and "Much Glasgow excursion traffic has, we believe, been sent into the Central instead of to Queen Street"
Under CALEDONIAN RAILWAY. The marshalling plan is shown for "2.0pm Diner Express from Glasgow Central, Minimum Summer load 307tons", the leading vehicle being NE Composite, 8wheels 22tons10cwt.

This deveopment may have been connected to the then current dispute between The North Eastern and North British over working of East Coast trains between Berwick and Edinburgh, with the North Eastern hedging its bets and/or applying pressure to its North British partner in negotiations over said train working.

Tom Robertson
Peter Scott
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by Peter Scott »

John Teasdale [the Editor] has published a photograph, on page 52 of the May 2017 issue of the North Eastern Express, the Journal of NERA.
The photo shows a train departing from Carlisle for Newcastle. But the leading vehicle is a Caledonian Railway Covered Carriage Truck to Diagram 83, one of 20 built between 1906 and 1908. The second vehicle in the train appears to be Caledonian Railway too.
So is this evidence of Caledonian Through "Vanload" Goods or Parcel Workings to Newcastle; as opposed to Through Trains, or full Running Powers?
jim mac
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by jim mac »

The photo from NERA Express
NER departing Carlisle resized.jpg
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The second vehicle is likely to be a CR 6-wheel Brake Van, Diagram 17, to St Rollox drawing 20957 and built in 1922, 6 off.
However, there were also 25 vehicles built to the same diagram by McIntosh, and in discussion with Mike Williams we think this is the Pickersgill version.
jim mac
dunalastairv
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by dunalastairv »

Could I ask a question of Mike Williams? The picture you attached for this subject, of a quad-royal poster board with a Newcastle timetable attached, has the inscription "No. 25" underneath. Is this from a catalogue showing the different styles of these poster boards the Caley used and if so, could we see the whole thing? As usual I must declare an interest here - I'm restoring a board exactly like this at present, bought at a recent auction and a totally remarkable survivor. I will write about it for TTL when it's finished.

Thanks in advance, Michael.
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

There's a series of albums in NRS, Michael, Ref:BR/CAL/4//156-61.
They were particularly useful in the Pullman Chapter in the Carriage Book - see reference on p.14.

Good luck with the restoration

Mike
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

Further to the last post, I've just remembered that I took a quick photo of one of the index pages in the poster albums.

Best

Mike
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dunalastairv
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by dunalastairv »

Mike,

Many thanks for these two messages - I'm following them up.

Best, Mike.
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

There are photos of the whole boards in two sizes in the Pullman chapter of the carriage book, p. 228. Might save you a trip!

Best

Mike
dunalastairv
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by dunalastairv »

Oh, believe me, I've studied those pictures many times and minutely! It's the fact the C.R.may have allocated numbers for the different sizes of poster board that interests me in this context.

Best, Mike.
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Newcastle services?????

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

The numbers allocated are just keys to the index in the front of each album, Mike

Best

Mike
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