Where is this, please?

The day to day working of the Caledonian Railway Company, including its constituents and successors.
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Jim Summers
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Where is this, please?

Post by Jim Summers » Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:56 am

Can anyone offer a suggestion as to this location, please?
The siding on the right is presumably level (well, they should be), meaning the train is climbing.

JimS
Piloting on main line - unknown  reduced l..jpg
Piloting on main line - unknown reduced l..jpg (20.71 KiB) Viewed 15716 times

Jim Summers
Posts: 824
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Where is this, please?

Post by Jim Summers » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:18 am

This might be a more helpful size, if it works - it used to be so easy getting the right size for an attachment, until Microsoft brought out their new program- 10 times more complicated, 10 times less useful.

JimS
Piloting on main line - reduced 3..jpg
Piloting on main line - reduced 3..jpg (70.06 KiB) Viewed 15710 times

caley739
Posts: 165
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by caley739 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:15 pm

I have a print of this with the stamp of photographer Henry L Salmon serial no. 426 on the reverse. Unfortunately there are no other details. He probably gave no thought to the prospect of obsessed people a century later trying to figure out the location!! No.60 displays the bow tie for mainline to or from Carlisle, but inspiration as to the exact location is lacking so far.

Tom Robertson

DonaldPeddie
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by DonaldPeddie » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:31 am

Jim,

I believe this is Beattock Summit, the train approaching from the south, and the date may be April 1922. In my 956 book I used a Henry Salmon image of No 938 passing the same spot on that date. See Plate 16, page 30. The siding on the left side is a 'run off' from the Up loop.

Donald

caley739
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by caley739 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:26 am

Donald
I also have a print of 938 that you refer to. It has a Henry L Salmon stamp serial 425 on the back. So yes the consecutive reference numbers point to them being the same date for both photos. I was also mulling over Beattock Summit as the location but wondering if it was a southbound. I have not been able to find a detailed track plan of the Summit loops and sidings. Perhaps unsurprisingly there appears to be no 25 inch OS for this remote location and the 6 inch OS I looked at is lacking in detail. Overall I think Beattock Summit is the only possible location.

Tom

dunalastairv
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by dunalastairv » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:48 am

There is a signal wire or two running under the tracks in the foreground: if this is Beattock, looking south, that would correspond with the Summit box being behind the photographer and to his left. Again I agree with the surmise - if this isn't Beattock where else could it be. The outline of the high hill in the background should also provide definitive evidence.

Jim Summers
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by Jim Summers » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:13 am

Thank you, gentlemen.
I entirely agree with your conclusions. While I had considered a Down train, I had not really realised how striking that gradient was against the level siding. That is indeed the headshunt on the Up side. Somewhere I have a decent diagram of Summit, but for the moment, if you look at TTL 42 you can see the Summit layout on the LMS sidestrips, which are reproduced therein.

The originals are held in our archives, and are extremely useful - after all, they were meant to be!

Thanks again,
JimS

caley739
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by caley739 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:47 pm

Perish the thought, but is this an example of the Caley following NB practice by coupling the pilot inside the train engine? I cannot recall ever seeing another obvious example of this.

Tom Robertson

Jim Summers
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by Jim Summers » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:54 pm

Tom,
I have written really rather a lot about this whole business of banking and assistance in the forthcoming book. I conclude that one cannot read too much into the situation when double-heading, which I think this depicts. If the locos are formed up at the shed and are going the full stretch, then there seems little reason why the train engine should not be in front.
And I think too much has been read into the NBR practice, but nevertheless I suspect the last word has not been said on this.
JimS

caley739
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by caley739 » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:24 am

Jim
I commented because I have seen several images of double headed trains leaving Carlisle with the train engine displaying the bow tie and the pilot coupled in front having no indicator. My interpretation is that the pilot would probably be detached at Summit. I also have seen an image of a down LMS train at Dumfries (I know G&SWR territory but Standard Compound train engine supplied by Kingmoor) with the train engine displaying an indicator and the pilot coupled in front having no indicator. Again my interpretation is that the pilot would probably be detached at New Cumnock.

Tom

Jim Summers
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by Jim Summers » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:58 am

That seems reasonable, Tom, but I have not so far run to earth any sort of formal instruction on these matters. Incidentally, the BOT inspectors at Caley accidents have been clear that the man on the leading engine is primarily in charge, with the man behind not absolved from checking signals and the running of the train.

Jim

DonaldPeddie
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by DonaldPeddie » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:29 pm

Just to muddy the water on piloting a little more, I attach a Henry Salmon image for which I have the glass plate. It depicts No 132 piloting No 864 on what appears to be a mixed freight working including cattle wagons, and judging by the 'whiteness' of these wagons, a fair amount of lime wash has been used. The location for this down working is just north of Cornton Crossing (two miles north of Stirling), the date being 1922. For all traffic leaving Stirling for the main line north, the driver had the discretion to ask for an assisting engine. Often trains were banked, even in BR days, calling-on signals being provided to allow banking engines to draw forward into platforms 2 or 6 at the station. Piloting from Stirling was usually restricted to workings for Oban, where the pilot worked all the way through. Piloting for non-Oban traffic was not, as far as I can now judge common, though I do have and image of a 294 Class 0-6-0 coupled in front of a north bound train at platform 2 at Stirling, the train engine being a 4-4-0 (so not Oban traffic).

Donald
Attachments
57.jpg
Nos 132 and 864 at Cornton
57.jpg (219.71 KiB) Viewed 15447 times

lms14509
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Where is this, please?

Post by lms14509 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:56 pm

Gents,

Are we sure it is Beattock? No.60 was a Balornock Loco (Glasgow-Perth) in Pre-Grouping days. Not to say she could not travel further afield- but is it possible it is closer to home?

caley739
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by caley739 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:24 am

Allan
You make a valid point about the allocation of No.60. However she is displaying the bow tie indicator which the 1915 Appendix page 121 describes as Main Line Via Motherwell and it is made clear that it applies to Glasgow Central trains. This seems to rule out a Buchanan Street train.

Tom

lms14509
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by lms14509 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:32 pm

Tom,

You are absolutely correct-how did I miss that ?!!!!

Thank you!

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 456
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:13 pm

Could it be that No. 132 in Donald's photo is hitching a ride to save a light engine movement? It was a Perth engine in 1921 according to the appendix in 40 Years of Caledonian Locomotives.

Best

Mike

WCML55.68
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Where is this, please?

Post by WCML55.68 » Wed May 01, 2019 9:34 pm

Hello all,

I have perused this photo for hours and would agree that this is a Northbound working at Beattock Summit for several reasons although there are one or two things which seemed odd to me at first. Assuming that the layout and lie of the land remained unaltered into BR days, the first of these is the incredible difference in height of the siding on the left compared to the mainline. Does the ML drop off so alarmingly or could this be a trick of the lense due to perspective and foreshortening exaggerating the difference? The line certainly curves off to the left beyond the loops. Secondly there should be two loops on the right of the photo, extreme right being for the "Siege" shopping train. This was not as long as the main loop so perhaps the photo was taken so far south that it had already joined the main loop. The hills around, which were considerably higher than summit, look right. Also looking right is the lie of the land extreme right of the photo, there is a lineside fence a small distance and a little higher than the line, and much further back and even higher is the stone wall which ran up to and in front of the Summit Cottages. The A74, Carlisle Road, and telegraph pole line ran beyond this wall.

Current view from A74 (B7076) showing lie of the hills,

[https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.41445 ... 312!8i6656]

There is a clip on Utub showing part of the layout, including the north side rising siding and Summit Cottages.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SMyvG1LfDw]



And a shot looking the other way showing the way the siding appears to rise considerably. Negative now owned. Rare sight of a Duchess double-headed by BR Class 5. Officially double heading using two pacifics including Britannias was banned because of weight restrictions. Note enthusiasts swarming over the mainline and is that a Ribble Royal Tiger??
BEATTOCK SUMMIT CLASS 5  73062 Piloting Coronation over Beattock 19-5-1956.jpg
BEATTOCK SUMMIT CLASS 5 73062 Piloting Coronation over Beattock 19-5-1956.jpg (88.78 KiB) Viewed 10222 times
Hope this all helps,
Regards Paul.
Last edited by WCML55.68 on Thu May 02, 2019 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

dunalastairv
Posts: 193
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by dunalastairv » Thu May 02, 2019 6:43 am

Hello Paul,

That really is a cracking picture - there is so much to study one could write a small book about all that can be seen. Visiting the site today there's nothing worth talking about at all and it really is hard to believe all this once existed. I wonder what life was really like for the inhabitants of those houses, a thousand feet up and constantly blasted by winds, rain and snow...

WCML55.68
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Where is this, please?

Post by WCML55.68 » Thu May 02, 2019 4:38 pm

Hello.

It sure is a cracking shot, isnt it!! I will try and get a better scan done and repost it, the one above is the ebay low-res scan. Main reason for my purchase was the excellent view of Summit cottages, a rare one. Yes Ive visited both Summit and Harthope Viaduct several times over the last few years, both sadly annihilated railway community and infrastructure wise. We intend this year to walk between the two and maybe a bit further south and try to locate the famous viewpoints of old. I am sure that the people who formed these communities would have been a very hardy and resourceful bunch enjoying a tremendous family spirit and terrific sense of humour, as anyone who has ever worked on the buses or trains will confirm. The cottages at Harthope had a chicken run and alloltments behind, so partly self-sufficient. Ive no doubt that newspapers landed in the back gardens of Harthope cottages thrown from passing trains along with all sorts of provisions dropped off, and has anyone ever witnessed the well-known characteristic of loco coal which flies out the cabdoor just as the loco passes such cottages. :roll: :roll: I always remember a Derek Cross magazine article about meeting his wife off the train at Euston, and she saying "Im surprised to see you here, theres snow over Shap" at which he promptly disappeared armed with camera. He got to his chosen site on a banker and the crew duly warned him of the hazards of not being able to see trip and fall hazards under the snow. Derek says, great thankyou, what will I do when its time to get back to shed. "Oh just stand beside the track and put your hand out" and that is what duly happened. Derek says, it was just like stopping a bus, but that was the West Coast Main Line for you in the 50s and 60s. I will see if I can find that article and post the Issue of the magazine.

Regards Paul.

Jim Summers
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Where is this, please? A new photo

Post by Jim Summers » Wed May 08, 2019 9:55 pm

Can anyone identify the location of this Oban Bogie, please?
The footbridge and the rather grand building on the hill should be clues, but have defeated me so far.

JimS
Puzzle picture.jpg
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jim mac
Posts: 636
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by jim mac » Thu May 09, 2019 8:27 am

Jim
I have this filed as Dunkeld & Birnam, a photograph by HCS Everard which was published in Railway Mag. January 1928.

jim mac

dunalastairv
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Where is this, please?

Post by dunalastairv » Thu May 09, 2019 9:15 am

That all fits from studying Google Maps, but sadly I rather think the grand house with turrets on the hill has now gone. It is an extraordinary picture though, an Oban Bogie, still in C.R. livery, five years after the Grouping, complete with snow plough, and working a northbound goods on the H.R. main line! I wonder if it went all the way to Inverness...?

JimG
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by JimG » Thu May 09, 2019 10:40 am

I've just had a look in Google Maps and the house with twin towers still appears to be there although I don't know the date of the Google image.
dunkeld.jpg
dunkeld.jpg (107.48 KiB) Viewed 9757 times
Jim.

Jim Summers
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by Jim Summers » Thu May 09, 2019 9:00 pm

Thank you everyone.

Just to add to the interest of the location and get shamelessly off the subject, the signalling at Dunkeld is now in a pretty strange situation. Since the Highland Main Line re-signalling, just completed, Stanley Junction controls to towards Dunkeld, but hands over there to the Dunkeld box, which remains. Dunkeld then hands control back to Stanley for the sections beyond and including Pitlochry, which has gained the facility of simultaneous entry to the loops - whoopee! A real bonus.

What a wonderful place this Forum is!


JimS

jim mac
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Re: Where is this, please?

Post by jim mac » Sat May 11, 2019 8:44 am

Some additional information related to the photograph which started this topic and was identified as having appeared in the Railway Mag.

The article "The Highland Section of the LMSR in 1927" by G.E. Lane was largely a summary of the then current passenger train services and was illustrated with a further 6 photographs by various photographers, all of which are undated, so we can't be sure that CR53 was still in Caley livery in 1927.

However, there are unpublished notes on the use of CR locomotives on the Highland among the James McEwan papers in Kirkintilloch (T25/1/30), of which the following are extracts:
"4-6-0 no.56 throughout, and relieved at times by nos. 53 and 58"
"4-6-0 no.56 was wanted by the CR in 1919 and when asked for its return the HR wrote that it was in Lochgorm works for new tubes and asked that St Rollox forward 14 tubes 12ft long."
"No.56 returned in 1922 and in 1923 No.53 went to Inverness", (this is the locomotive in the photograph)
"In 1915 the HR manager wrote to Matheson seeking a meeting concerning the shortage of locomotive power."
"Over the war years a number of engines were lent from time to time commencing in 1915, (total number never ascertained)"

As the loan included significant numbers of 4-4-0, 0-6-0 and the odd one from other classes, there must be a challenge to find other photographs of CR engines operating on the Highland prior to 1923.
jim mac

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