GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

The day to day working of the Caledonian Railway Company, including its constituents and successors.
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DonaldPeddie
Posts: 55
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:40 pm

GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by DonaldPeddie » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:55 pm

I would be grateful for advice on the location of this coal train working involving one of the GCR 2-8-0s hired by the CR.

Donald
Attachments
GCR 2-8-0 MM Class, with CR coal train. - Copy (2).jpg
GCR 2-8-0 MM Class, with CR coal train. - Copy (2).jpg (236.68 KiB) Viewed 15072 times

jasp
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by jasp » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:02 pm

Donald
Can’t help with the location but shows lots of footplate detail.
If not copyright could I please have a copy?
Thanks
Jim P

David Blevins
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by David Blevins » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:02 pm

A photo of this Locomotive came up under "ROD's on the Caledonian" away back on the Forum dated 14/11/2012, quite a large article but difficult to locate in the search - thousands of entries for "rods.....".
The original caption stated "Perth July, 1921", I don't think anyone has as yet identified the Loco Number.
David Blevins.

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by caley739 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:11 pm

I think the train is leaving Perth northbound at Balhousie. The photographer would be on the Crieff Road bridge.

Tom Robertson
Last edited by caley739 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

jimwatt2mm
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by jimwatt2mm » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:01 pm

caley739 wrote:I think the train is leaving Perth northbound at Balhousie. The photographer would be on the Crief Road bridge.
The track layout certainly fits this map https://maps.nls.uk/view/82899267 , bottom left hand corner of the sheet.

Jim W

DonaldPeddie
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by DonaldPeddie » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:05 pm

David, Tom, Jim,

Many thanks for your responses, which accurately pin the location. I believe the photographer may have been HL Salmon.

Donald

Dave John
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by Dave John » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:11 pm

A very useful picture.

( I have recently bought one quite cheaply from Hattons. The livery is no problem, conversion to EM will be the fun bit )

jasp
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by jasp » Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:56 am

I got one some time ago for a very reasonable price.
My thought is to build completely new running gear using the Alan Gibson wheel and bush set which utilises the existing side rods etc.
One of these days I must draw out the frames and try scribing them with my Cameo using the Amy Cholas etching tool.
Maybe more anon .....
Jim P

Coronach
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Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by Coronach » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:07 pm

To throw a spanner in the works here, this could also conceivably be Etterby Junction, Kingmoor, with the entrance to the former down yard in the right distance.

Davy.

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by caley739 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:39 pm

Davy
When I was trying to identify this, Etterby Junction was a location I did consider with an up train,but fairly quickly dismissed it. The layout does not match well to The 1924 OS whereas Balhousie is a very good match to the OS. Another thought is, would the Caledonian be working southbound coal trains through Carlisle in 1921? So I'm not conviced that it is Carlisle.

Tom

tony brenchley
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Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by tony brenchley » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:20 am

I am intrigued by what appears to be a long mineral train going north from Perth on the Caley main line.

Full coal wagons did reach Perth via the NBR from Fife but this was mainly for landsale. Wagons for the HR would have been marshalled into HR trains and for the Strathmore main line and Caley branches into local trains at Perth. The NBR ensured that Fife coal traffic for Dundee, Aberdeen and the north went via the Tay Bridge.

So where is this amount of coal in one train going to and where did it come from? Too late for the Grand Fleet and was this not transhipped into ships at Grangemouth anyway and seemingly too much loco coal for the Caley at Aberdeen.

Tony B

dunalastairv
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Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by dunalastairv » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:40 am

Bearing in mind the severe disruption which continued on all railways after W.W.I, right up to the Grouping and beyond, and the fact that the Highland was chronically short of engines, I wonder if some arrangement had been arrived at where this Caley ROD worked the coal right through to Inverness, via Stanley Junction, and it's the start of such a journey we're looking at? Just a possibility...

caley739
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Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by caley739 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:48 am

An interesting discussion developing here!! Remember that there was a very large fishing fleet based at Aberdeen and also smaller ports on the GNoSR system. They were almost exclusively coal fired although there may have been some use of sail remaining. Demand for coal would be considerable especially during the peak herring season. The fish in all of those southbound fish trains are likely to have been landed by a coal powered vessel.
Another likely use would be loco coal for the Caledonian and possibly the GNoSR. So along with landsale coal I have no difficulty in believing that Aberdeen and further north could justify several trainloads per week even if Fife coal conveyed by the North British dominated the market.

Wishing a Merry Christmas to one and all.

Tom
Last edited by caley739 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dunalastairv
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Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by dunalastairv » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:49 pm

Very fair point: if the C.R. ordered locomotive coal for Aberdeen and other sheds on the way, it would surely have come from pits that connected to the Company, and they would certainly not have allowed the North British to be involved in its movement. There would be big demand for coal in Aberdeen, for indusry as well as the fishing fleet, and for distribution in the Carse of Gowrie, on lines again they'd want to keep the N.B.R. firmly away from. They might even have transported some for the Great North. In the days when coal was king, this much on the move to an area devoid of pits isn't particularly surprising.

John Duffy
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Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by John Duffy » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:28 pm

I cannot contribute regarding the era in the photograph but through the early BR days - which may be a clue to a hold-over from grouping - there was a regular flow of Fife coal over the Strathmore line to Aberdeen. This started at Thornton at 7:40 am and took the Ladybank line to Perth and then on to Aberdeen. The crews changed at Coupar Angus at 10:30 am. The return working of the empties was a Craiginches to Kelty working, with the Thornton men leaving Coupar Angus at 10:38 and working via Glenfarg, getting into Kelty at 2:00 pm. In BR days this was rostered (turn No. 5) for a Thornton 8F on a Monday, Wednesday and Friday, with Ferryhill providing power (turn 28) on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturdays.

I know this is all BR era but it may indicate that there was a history of running block coal trains from NB territory over the Caley mainline.

John

dumb buffer
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by dumb buffer » Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:03 am

A good many years ago I was doing some research into the flows of mineral traffic in Fife. I can't now find my notes -- but the general practise in 1905 was that there were about 35 paths daily from West Fife (Dunfermline, Kelty, Cowdenbeath) to Burntisland, via Thornton. There was one daily to Aberdeen via Perth, and one daily to Inverness. It would be reasonable to suppose that these trains were hauled from Perth by the CR and HR respectively. There were also about 5 trains to the Glasgow area, but they would have been NB hauled all the way. I haven't checked the timetables, but I think there was a reasonable CR traffic from the Motherwell area to Perth (0-8-0's) and presumably therefore onwards to Aberdeen. Incidentally I also note a 2.45 pm Mineral for Inverness from Perth in the HR timetable. I would suggest that the photo may have been taken in early afternoon.

All food for thought, and a distraction from what I should be doing!


Allan F

bdrummond
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Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by bdrummond » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:57 pm

With regard to coal from Fife reaching Strathmore and the Caley, don't forget that the NBR and its successors had running rights by way of Arbroath to Forfar, Kirriemuir and Brechin. I have wagon labels from 1948 showing that the Michael Colliery regularly sent coal to Forfar (Branxton in the examples I quote) by way of "TB, Arbroath, & Cal". The consignee was BR and I'd assume the loco shed was the recipient.

Bob Drummond

dumb buffer
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Re: GCR 2-8-0 on coal train

Post by dumb buffer » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:39 pm

As far as I can gather, the CR took its loco coal from the most convenient suitable colliery, whereas the NBR took almost exclusively from the Fife Coal Company. Forfar is a long way from any pits on CR metals, and the Michael pit may have been the most convenient in 1948. However I recall the CR traffic from Motherwell to Perth in 30 ton bogies (which would presumably mostly be loco coal), and the general reluctance of the old companies to pass any traffic onto foreign metals that they could carry themselves. So I would suggest that in CR days the Forfar loco coal probably came from Lanarkshire, via Perth.

Allan F

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