Train Formation

The day to day working of the Caledonian Railway Company, including its constituents and successors.
Dave Lochrie
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Train Formation

Post by Dave Lochrie » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:05 pm

The attatched image from the A G Ellis collection is reported to be of Dunalistair II, No771, the quality is not fantastic but can anyone suggest where it was taken and particularly what is the first carriage?
CR No771 and train.JPG
CR No771 and train.JPG (66.95 KiB) Viewed 33517 times
I not an expert on "foreign" carriages but I can think of 2 options. Firstly the vehicle is a NER coach providing the illusive through connection from Newcastle, and secondly (the roof line at the cantrail, and a hint of lighter but not white, upper panels) that this is a GWR brake composite providing the through Taunton connection to Glasgow.

Dave L
Last edited by Dave Lochrie on Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jim Summers
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by Jim Summers » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:50 pm

Never mind the carriage, Dave, all those vertical posts are great. The one in the foreground is particularly intriguing. What does/did it support? And what are these dark shapes which look like metal rungs, but these would hardly have continued from top to bottom.

You are doing well with puzzle pictures this week.

Jim

dumb buffer
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by dumb buffer » Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:22 pm

I also was immediately intrigued by the posts. I think the double post in the right background is probably a telegraph pole, but the tapered one in the foreground is puzzling. Could it support a straining wire for the bracket signal? Also why is there a lamp apparently 6' under the main road signal? Truly there's usually more than one puzzle in a puzzle picture!

Allan F

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:24 am

For location my first thought is Port Carlisle Branch Junction Carlisle,but second thought is that some aspects(signals and double telegraph pole) are not right for said location. I cannot suggest any other location at the moment.

Tom Robertson

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by Dave Lochrie » Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:19 am

The right hand post is an "A Pole" telegraph post which were common throughout the Caledonian especially in station and yard areas, on sharper curves, or when height was increased to cross line overbridges.
There may be another explanation for the tapered post but I'm pretty sure it is a yard lamp, but without the actual lamp. I don't have any theories about location but the signalling (bracket and presence of ground signal) makes it likely the photographer was standing in an adjacent yard. Again this type of post with rungs was common in older goods yards.
Yard9.jpg
Yard9.jpg (96.5 KiB) Viewed 33418 times
The attached close up shows a wonderful cameo for modellers with a similar post with lamp attached. I have also seen a similar arrangement on an early double sided signal post. I can't explain the lamp other than it may be a part-windlass operated example with the lamp accessible by ladder to the landing rather than ground level.

Further comparison suggests the carriage (remember it in the background?) has a GWR Dean roof profile so shows a through Taunton vehicle rather than a through Newcastle vehicle, wisely no one in the forum is admitting to a knowledge of anything GWR, but photos of anything non-LNWr/WCJS on Caledonian trains are rare.

Dave L
Last edited by Dave Lochrie on Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:32 am

Since No 771 was built 2/98 and rebuilt with superheater 3/14 ,that dates the photograph between these dates. Now I am no GWR expert but I do have a copy of "Great Western Coaches from 1890" by Michael Harris. I assume that any through coach would be a brake composite with dual brakes, and GWR coaches with air brakes were very rare birds. The Lot list suggests a non corridor brake first/third composite of Lot 814 dated 1896 to diagram E44, running numbers 1584-9, three of which were fitted with Westinghouse brakes. These 3 might have been constructed specifically for the Plymouth-Glasgow service with 2 in daily use and 1 spare.The only other air braked clerestory coaches noted are a couple of invalid saloons and some third saloons which seem unlikely candidates. Unfortunately I cannot find any picture of a diagram E44 coach.

Tom Robertson

Jim Summers
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by Jim Summers » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:14 pm

I'll buy your explanation that it is a lamp-post sans lamp, Dave. I have a similar picture of one in NB country, so that was my original thought, but I was surprised that the rungs went so close to the ground.

On the telegraph post, the A-frame was indeed very much a Caledonian characteristic, though, as you say, not universal. The signalling book has a chapter dwelling on such things.

Jim S

Alan K
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by Alan K » Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:54 pm

Wonderfully atmospheric photo, David. That hut looks as though it started out as a grounded carriage with a roof and brick chimney breast added - and the new roof looks as though it's seen better days! I wouldn't like to sit on that bench outside either!

Alan

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by Dave Lochrie » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:35 pm

Tom,
I have never seen anything concrete regarding the through GWR vehicles used, disappointed there are no illustrations as it's quite difficult to make much from the photograph. Does the book quote the layout or dimensions for Diag E44, even allowing for perspective the carriage in the photo looks to be longer than the adjacent WCJS carriages.
The bothy has clearly taken a number of years to reach the impressive facility we se here, and though I know what Allan means I would relish the chance to sit on that bench for a few hours, preferably with a digital camera to hand!

Dave L

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:41 am

Dave
Details are few. Dimensions quoted for diagram E44 are 56'.0" x 8'.6".Both dimensions are plus three quarters of an inch but I'm unsure of how to type that to look presentable!! A careful reading and rereading of the only small relevant part of the text suggests the layout to be brake/thirds/firsts with the unusual feature of a first coupe with end windows. The length looks about right for your mystery vehicle but for the other features it is just as easy to suggest a case for or against. My previous suggestion is based almost entirely on the brakes aspect. There are simply so few GWR clerestory coaches noted as Westinghouse fitted. Apart from the 3 diagram E44 vehicles, there are Lot 984 of 1901 to diagram G18 third saloons running numbers 2595-2600 length 46'.6" and there are 2 vehicles Lot 1027 of 1903 to diagram G33 length 47'.6" invalid saloons.Both lengths are again plus three quarters of an inch. That is only 11 coaches in total but If there are more air braked coaches not noted in the lists the reasoning starts to fall apart. If the Caley were prepared to accept vacuum brake only stock on a regular working the reasoning again is suspect. Then again if it is a special rather than regular working anything could occur.
On dating the photograph the GWR started to change livery from chocolate and cream to overall brown in 1908 and there seems to be a hint of light colour on the upper parts of your rather murky photo. So the date appears to be the earlier part of the range 1898-1914.
Assuming the coach to be on a regular working I have been consulting Bradshaw for 1910 (quite a challenge) to determine its workings. Although difficult to make definite conclusions its seems to leave Glasgow at 10.00 when noted as a through coach to Bristol. I'm still working on times in the Plymouth-Glasgow direction. The through working of a GWR Brake Composite in the 1930s and 1950s has been relatively easy to find but not really relevant to this thread.
More speculation than facts. Perhaps a real GWR fan might read this post and make a contribution!!

Tom Robertson

jim mac
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by jim mac » Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:12 am

Having just purchased a copy of the photograph on ebay I attach an enlargement of the coaches
GWR coach.jpg
GWR coach.jpg (45.33 KiB) Viewed 33346 times
The locomotive appears to have the semaphore set as the bow-tie which indicates it is on the mainline to/from Carlisle.
Another copy of the photograph in my file is credited to R A Chrystal, who regularly used Stirling as his preferred location and, as his photographs are usually of a much higher quality, this may have been a chance encounter snapped in haste.
Sorry that I can't comment on the first coach, but my understanding of through working was that both companies supplied the stock with the CR stock northbound one day and southbound the next and the GWR running the opposite service.
jim mac

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 627
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by jimwatt2mm » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:47 pm

caley739 wrote:.......Both dimensions are plus three quarters of an inch but I'm unsure of how to type that to look presentable!!.......
Tom Robertson
Tom, If you hold down the 'Alt' key and type 0190 you get ¾. 0188 gives you ¼ and 0189 ½. HTH.

Jim W

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:04 am

Jim
Thankyou for a very useful tip.
Tom

JimG
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by JimG » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:56 am

caley739 wrote:Jim
Thankyou for a very useful tip.
Tom,

If you are running Windows, another way to find non-keyboard characters is to run charmap.exe. You can do this by typing "charmap" into the search box and hitting return. When it comes up, you get a display of all the characters available on the font you are using and you select whichever ones you want and copy them into the clipboard, then paste them into whatever you are writing. It's very handy for all the accented characters for foreign lamguages if you need them.

Jim.

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:08 am

JimG
Thankyou for another good pointer.
Tom

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 627
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by jimwatt2mm » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:59 pm

JimG wrote: If you are running Windows, another way to find non-keyboard characters is to run charmap.exe.
Jim.
That's one I didn't know, but, trying it, I've now found that if you check the 'advanced view' box and click on a character, the keystrokes to use appear in the bottom right corner of the box. Saves copying and pasting and useful when you can't remember what the keystrokes are! :?

Jim W

crabapple
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:53 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by crabapple » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:39 pm

What taxs me is when did the Glaosgow-Taunton thro coach start to operate ?

I feel before the GW converted to standard gauge since the broad gauge was beyond Taunton.

And what type of GW coach was used to run into the Central 3 times a week ?

I'm guessing a GW tri compo + Luggage compartment .

And the guess underlines my scant knowledge of matters of the Great Way Round.

Jim Summers
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by Jim Summers » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:01 pm

I would need to dig into my archives, but I recollect reading not so long ago that this service began when the GWR completed gauge conversion. Was it perhaps in David Ross's book, which obviously will have to be my book at bedtime tonight?

Jim S

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:21 am

Roger,Jim
David Ross's book does indeed provide the answer page 143. It states that through carriages began running daily between Glasgow Central and Plymouth in February 1893. It also says that the Caledonian abolished second class fares from May 1893. Thus the GWR through carriage is likely to have been a First Third Brake Composite rather than a tri composite.

Tom Robertson

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:59 am

Dave

This thread has been dormant for some time. Here is my suggestion to revive it.

I think the location is Germiston Junction with the train on the up main. The four running tracks and position of visible signals seem right. There is what seems to be a sleeper fence to the right of the picture which is present in other pictures. I take the right to left tracks to be up through siding, up main, down main,down through siding, with maybe up and down goods on a higher level in the murky background. This seems to agree with OS of 1910. The designation "through siding "could account for the apparent dearth of signalling. The track layout seems to have been considerabley altered after that date, possibley around 1916 when the new engine shed at Balornock opened for business.The general impression of murky industrial devastation seems right for the location, but I suppose many other Lanarkshire sites would invite the same comment.

Some doubts are caused by the indicator in front of the engine chimney. If it is a bow tie it is a train to or from Central rather than Buchanan Street. But it could be a white disc. The 4th vehicle has the look of a WCJS diner, again suggesting a train to from Central.

The reason for renewed inspiration is that today I received my copy of "Signalling The Caledonian Railway"and on quickly skimming through it my attention was immediately attracted by the photograph and signalling diagram on page 283. It just proves that I have been thinking about this problem in the back of my mind since inception of the thread.

Tom Robertson
Last edited by caley739 on Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

duncan
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:47 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by duncan » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:37 pm

I asked some questions of GWR modellers on the RMweb forum about the through carriages from the southern perspective. I have meaning to summarise the topic for here, but time has marched on. The link to the topic is below with some interesting thoughts on GWR through carriages.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... ches-1900/

Duncan

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:25 am

What!! No takers for my Germiston Junction idea in post of 5th March?

Tom

IBrown
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by IBrown » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:07 pm

From the first I thought the location to be the junction north of Carlisle station between the Caley main line and the NB Waverley Route. My knowledge of Carlisle didn't extend to knowing its name, but a search shows it to be Port Carlisle Branch Junction. Next problem was finding a contemporary photo showing like for like. As the one posted lacks background detail, further complicated by the junction and signalling had altered in the 3 images I found on the web, the nearest comparison I did find is a photo of an NBR train taking the 'Waverley Route' at the junction.

http://goo.gl/5O0HI8

caley739
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Train Formation

Post by caley739 » Fri Apr 17, 2015 6:50 pm

Ian
My first thought was also Port Carlisle Branch Junction (post of 28/06/2014) but I discounted that for several reasons. The NB image you refer to shows a distant arm on the bracket for the Waverley Route. All other images that I have seen of Port Carlisle Branch junction also show the distant arm. The NB image shows the ground to the right dropping quite steeply whereas in the mystery image it is more or less level.The OS 1925 shows the Caley to be only double track at that location and in the mystery pic there seem to be at least four tracks. In the Carlisle area I also briefly considered Dentonholme North but quickly dismissed it.

So that left me looking at multiple track locations probabley in industrial Lanarkshire/Glasgow and so far Germiston Junction is the only likely fit I have found for the mystery pic with sharply diverging tracks from a multi track main line.

Tom

IBrown
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: Train Formation

Post by IBrown » Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:06 pm

Tom,
Port Carlisle Branch Junction box closed on 14/3/1909. I have been unable to find any photos of it and the only description I have is from an Accident Report on a derailment there on the Down line on 16/2/1872 where the Down line junction home signals are described but with no mention of distant signal(s) below. The Carlisle Goods lines only extended northwards to Caldew Junction at this time, which is also noted as the box in rear. But the Accident Report does describe Port Carlisle Branch Junction box as an elevated structure sitting on the east side of the railway (ie on the Up side) close to the junction.

The original photo shows a ghostly shadow of what could be a tall building sitting close to the railway on the Up side, to the right of the junction with the ‘Waverley Route’. While this tall building could ‘fit’ Port Carlisle Branch Junction box, it cannot ’fit’ Germiston Junction box as it sat to the left of the junction with the main line and the Balornock lines. In addition the Goods lines ran on an embankment behind Germiston Junction box but there is no hint of signals etc in the background, nor the higher ground and houses behind these lines. There is nothing in the background to the main line at Port Carlisle Branch Junction box because the railway runs on embankment here to bridge the River Caldew which lies directly south.

As to there not being multiple tracks at Port Carlisle Branch Junction, the first chapter in Jim’s book, Page 9, shows track alterations were in progress on a new alignment for the Caley main line north through Carlisle which together with the Carlisle Goods lines meant there were at least 4 tracks by 1876. See below.

1946 Aerial View from SW. Sign in to navigate & zoom. Note also the width of the ‘Waverley Route’ embankment at Port Carlisle Branch Junction, in relation to my comments for 1968.
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/eaw000305

I mentioned the junction layout changed throughout its life. Here are the examples I found:

1962
https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6001126779/

1965
http://www.railpictorial.com/piwigo/picture.php?/6698

1968 – This is the same as 1965, but relates back to the original photo and the suggestion that there was once yard lighting here. These once-modern lighting towers still standing in 1968 do suggest there were sidings here until very recently. The 1901 NBR Appendix contains a Steam Whistle Signal ‘ 1 long and 9 short’ to be given at Carlisle Canal Junction box ... To or from Caledonian Sidings. I wonder if the lines which became the Carlisle Goods lines between Port Carlisle Branch Junction and Willowholme Junction were originally Caley exchange sidings for NBR traffic?

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/ ... p?id=26316

Ian

Post Reply