Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
Niall Ferguson
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 10:23 am

Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by Niall Ferguson »

I just purchased this postcard on eBay. It was described as posted in 1904 with a photograph stuck on it, and it certainly is. The rear (included) shows that it was postmarked Battersea and sent to Norfolk but the photo stuck to the front says it is Arbroath Station. Unless I am very much mistaken Arbroath Station never looked like this! The railwayman visible might be wearing D&A Stationmaster Uniform but the lettering is not visible and there is no obvious ownership on the carriages. All suggestions gratefully received.
Niall Ferguson
Arbroath Station possibly small.jpg
Arbroath Station possibly small.jpg (124.28 KiB) Viewed 666 times
Arbroath Station possibly rear small.jpg
Arbroath Station possibly rear small.jpg (103.08 KiB) Viewed 666 times
dunalastairv
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by dunalastairv »

Looks very Highland to me - stock, platform lamp and luggage cart.
Alisdair
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Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by Alisdair »

I think the carriages and footbridge are GNSR. Maud station on Peterhead platform, possibly?
Alisdair
dumb buffer
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by dumb buffer »

What is the meaning of the stamp "Contrary to Regulations"?

Allan F
dunalastairv
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by dunalastairv »

I think the regulations were that if you only put a halfpenny stamp on, you couldn't write in the message section, but only on the picture side. As I recall, to write as shown on this example, you needed to pay 1d. Amazing isn't it?!
Orraman
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by Orraman »

The stamp is actually "Contrary to Regulations 31B" and the other handstamp is "1d 31B".

31B was the code for Battersea Post office district.

I would suggest that since the photograph is stuck on to a conventional postcard, it was "Contrary to regulations". As such the post office clerk in Battersea applied both handstamps in order that a supplementary charge of 1d would be collected when the card was delivered.
dumb buffer
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by dumb buffer »

If it wasn't an impertinence, I'd be tempted to ask "what is 1d"! I seem to recall that cards were 2d in my time. There were some odd rules; newspapers, for example could be sent for a letter stamp (2½d), but only if rolled with the ends open. Close the ends and they cost, I think, 5d

Allan F
Orraman
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:51 am

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by Orraman »

The postal charge for a postcard in 1904 was a halfpenny and it would appear there was no distinction between a plain postcard or one depicting a view.

However in this case it would appear the photo has been stuck onto a plain postcard so Battersea have decided that it is not actually a postcard, it has become a letter. For that the charge would have been 1d, so an extra halfpenny was due. To this would be added a surcharge of a further halfpenny, hence the additional charge of 1d.
WCML55.68
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by WCML55.68 »

The handwriting is the same hand for the address, message, and photo title. How unusual is it make your own postcard by sticking a photo to a blank postcard? Ive never come across this before although I do have examples of photos taken, eg portrait or residence, where prints are provided in the form of postcards..
I wonder if the title is a misnomer for Dundee and Arbroath Railway station which would tie in with the possible D&A uniform and where did Walter get the details of location from?
Is there any evidence of writing on the back of the photo, raised indentation, have you tried shining a bright light on and through? Last resort X-ray if ID isnt forthcoming.

A couple of things strike me as odd, why Walter Flowerdew, a most unusual name and there is one registered on ancestry, Norfolk 1901 Census, would send a photo of a Scottish station some 350 miles away to Miss F, sole daughter?? and from Battersea to Norfolk. Maybe returning from a trip there or perhaps a Lens of Sutton print?

There appears to be a notice board propped up on the lean-to waiting room, top line seems to be "Panto" although I cant make out the rest.
TRAIN STATION ARBROATH detail.jpg
TRAIN STATION ARBROATH detail.jpg (60.06 KiB) Viewed 604 times
stuartp
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Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by stuartp »

I bet Miss Flowerdew was delighted if "...all the others..." arrived with a penny surcharge as well !
John Paton
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Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by John Paton »

I would not discount a Caley station. The footbridge looks like a Caledonian design and small lean-to buildings were quite common. See the uploaded photos of Drumlithie and Muchalls. I don't have any suggestions, but thinking of stations near Arbroath, my photos of Easthaven, Leysmill, Craigo, Farnell Road etc. have steel footbridges but they could be replacements. There is not much else to go on, but is that a signal box in the distant background?

John
Attachments
Drumlithie 2.jpg
Drumlithie 2.jpg (117.08 KiB) Viewed 513 times
Muchalls 5.jpg
Muchalls 5.jpg (67.14 KiB) Viewed 513 times
lindsay_g
Posts: 417
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by lindsay_g »

Yup, I noticed what appears to be a signal box in the distance.

I don’t think the top word is panto but can’t think what it can be. The first characters on each line are hidden by the lamppost.

Lindsay
Niall Ferguson
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by Niall Ferguson »

Lindsay, I think the bottom word on the poster is probably "cotch" making the whole word Scotch?
John P. I agree I think it looks quite Caley as do the uniforms. BTW 1. I might be coming your way looking for D&A station photos for the book 2. What program do you use for your drawings in True Line? I used Autosketch for my D&N and A&F books but it no longer works on Windows 10 - I have a copy of AutoCad 2000 but the learning curve seems terribly steep
Niall
WCML55.68
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by WCML55.68 »

Ive edited part of that photo again, its about as far as I can take it now.

It certainly looks like a signal box and on the opposite side of the line from the platform viewpoint. It also looks like there is a junction signal near the 'box, passing loop on single line?. Footbridge is slatted with cross bracing. Odd thing is the lack of fencing, the platform seems completely open with a pathway running off behind the lean-to.

The uniformed gent is one giant of a man and is clearly tall enough to look into the windows, check height of the passengers, but does he have a cigarette in his mouth? Surely not. Also there seems to be a three digit number on the inside of the open doors, partly obscured on the first, second seems to be 192 and last illegible. Note also the different vents top of the doors.

Notice, I had wondered whether the centre line was Kippers, not convinced by any of those lines, and if Walter took the photo, why would he be there? Anyone have full access to ancestry, might reveal profession? Fish or golf if the area is correct?

TRAIN STATION ARBROATH detail 3 (2).jpg
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dunalastairv
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by dunalastairv »

I think the two enamel advertising signs read "Pears" as in soap, and "Epp's Cocoa". Both were common on railways around 1900.
dunalastairv
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by dunalastairv »

Sorry, "Epps's Cocoa".
Niall Ferguson
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by Niall Ferguson »

I like Pears and Epps Cocoa
Highland Society Forum thinks Caledonian location
WCML55.68
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by WCML55.68 »

That looks good on both counts Mike. So no clue there then.
John Paton
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by John Paton »

I've been thinking through all the locations around Arbroath which have straight double track, a footbridge in the place shown, and a signal box spaced some distance from the station. I am wondering about Guthrie looking towards the junction. I attach the 1901 25" OS. The footbridge is in the correct place (it was later moved westwards), and the signal box is just about in the right place. The 1962 photo I attach shows a completely different building - but it is of 1890s / early 1900s Northern Division design, so could be a replacement for the building shown in the photo.

John
Attachments
Guthrie 17-6-62.jpg
Guthrie 17-6-62.jpg (139.96 KiB) Viewed 452 times
Guthrie 1901.jpg
Guthrie 1901.jpg (63.14 KiB) Viewed 452 times
Dave Lochrie
Posts: 454
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by Dave Lochrie »

Yes, it is strange what the eye picks out. I also instantly saw Pears and Epps's Cocoa, but that may be because a few years ago I conducted a survey of visible advertising by looking at every Pre-1923 photo of Caledonian stations I could find and them grading them by order of frequency into a Top 30. I made no attempt to date the photos so the list covers the full period of 1880ish to 1920ish. Most of the main brands were active from at least 1890 through to the Grouping and beyond, so can rarely assist in dating a particular photo.
Subsequent casual review of stations of the other Scottish companies showed (not surprisingly) only some regional variations. Similar observation of English stations reveal surprising variations and not simply based on the advertisers' location.
Pears more commonly PEARS was at Number 1 and Epps's was at Number 8 (Van Heuten"s was the leading Cocoa at Number 2). I have been able to locate and photograph and reproduce to scale 27 out of the 30 thanks to the assistance of the late Bob MacAlpine and his network of enamel collectors. I have sufficient information to digitally reproduce the 3 missing adverts, after which I will be able to make these available to modellers.

Back to topic and notwithstanding Niall's feedback from the HRS, my instinct was Highland, everything other than the footbridge suggests Highland.
The style of carriage panelling is not un-Caledonian but the depth of the waist panelling does look deeper than seen on c1870 CR vehicles.
However, the Highland infrastructure was less subject to change throughout its independent life (and beyond) and so I would tend to trust their judgement.

I have several photos lined up for the Unidentified Location (because I don't know) and one of these turned up on a Facebook site for the Doune and because it was the original brick built station I had not recognised it. Same happened here with a photo of the original station at Stonehouse, so we need to be aware of this when looking at locations. Like the Highland the Northern Section of the Caledonian was subject to less change but as the Doune example proved this can be a trap for the unwary.

Guthrie is a possibility in terms of openness. The roof pitch on the wooden shelter is similar to that at the adjacent Auldbar Road. John P will be better able to date the replacement building but it looks to be a typical mid-1890's Perth design.


Dave L
John Paton
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by John Paton »

I can just make out valancing at the front of the shelter in Niall's postcard, so guess that the building might be of this style (see attachment).

John
Attachments
Burrelton up platform shelter Nick Tindall.jpg
Burrelton up platform shelter Nick Tindall.jpg (98.48 KiB) Viewed 414 times
WCML55.68
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by WCML55.68 »

There doesnt seem to be any track or platform edge on the right of the subject photo, just a path and trees. There seems to be too many sidings at Guthrie, but the next station along, Glasterlaw, looks interesting. Signal Box and Signal PostS a fair way from the station, footbridge and a path or open space at the side of the platform. The station building, or is it the manure works! might just be the downfall although it may be hidden behind those trees and theres no lean-to recorded but on all the research done for Harthope, the shape and layout of the buildings and what is actually known to be there is notoriously inaccurate on OS maps.

Note the differences between these three maps.


TRAIN STATION GLASTERLAW 1901.jpg
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TRAIN STATION GLASTERLAW .. MANURE WORKS.jpg
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TRAIN STATION GLASTERLAW.jpg
TRAIN STATION GLASTERLAW.jpg (81.98 KiB) Viewed 400 times
John Paton
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by John Paton »

Whilst I am not convinced that the evidence is sufficient to be certain that the photo is Guthrie, I discounted Glasterlaw for the following reasons.
Glasterlaw Junction was to the south of the station, so the photo would be looking southwards on the down (northbound) platform.
The main station building at Glasterlaw was on the down platform, and therefore would be visible in the photo.
The main station building at Glasterlaw was of a large stone standard SNER design, used also at Farnell Road, Bridge of Dun and Dubton (see my article in True Line 48 and attachment). While the photo could have been taken before it was built - eg. when the line was still in the ownership of the Aberdeen Railway - it would be a very early photograph and I suspect that the Aberdeen Railway was not the origin of the wooden CR footbridges.
All OS maps show the footbridge at the north end of the station, so it would not be in the photo.

While I agree with WCML55 that the photo is unclear to the right of the waiting shelter, the lighter colour strip could be the coping stones of the island platform. Most side-platform stations usually had a fence at the back of the platform which is not in the photo. It could be that the sidings beyond the island platform (if this is Guthrie) are obscured by the low photo angle of the photo.

John
Attachments
Glasterlaw 6-8-67 Nick Tindall.jpg
Glasterlaw 6-8-67 Nick Tindall.jpg (110.65 KiB) Viewed 356 times
Glasterlaw 1901.jpg
Glasterlaw 1901.jpg (39.59 KiB) Viewed 356 times
dunalastairv
Posts: 237
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by dunalastairv »

There is one other small detail in that picture, which might confirm Guthrie: the platform lamp shown is a drop-in type, with a wooden post and a wrought-iron frame, into which the lamp case itself sits. This was the normal arrangement on the Highland but less common on the Caley, which is why I first thought of the H.R. Of course the wooden posts rotted away, usually at the base, and were often replaced by lengths of redundant bull-head rail. In the colour photograph of Guthrie this arrangement can clearly be seen, with a battered wrought-iron frame still in position (sort of), on top of the piece of rail. If John is right that the building shown in the photograph was later replaced with a more modern, and larger structure, which seems perfectly reasonable, and the wooden lamp posts have been replaced by steel ones - then voila!
John Paton
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Re: Unidentified Location and Carriages and Possibly Company

Post by John Paton »

Another small point. The handwriting below the photo says "Arbroath Railway Station". We have obviously discounted this being Arbroath station, but it could also means a station on the Arbroath Railway. This narrows the field down to either the Arbroath and Forfar Railway (in which case my map search revealed Guthrie are the location that best fitted the photograph evidence), or the Dundee and Arbroath Railway. I could not find a station on the latter line that matched - but other may want to have a further search of this.

John
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