Unidentified Loco

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
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Niall Ferguson
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 10:23 am

Unidentified Loco

Post by Niall Ferguson »

In my cataloguing of Caledonian photos from the HMRS Collections I came across this one which has nothing on the back except 'S3117' The wagon is Diagram 20 Trolly No.4 of 1890 (pages 212/213 in Mike Williams' "Caledonian Wagons") but the locomotive is the problem. Can anyone give any help in identifying this 2-4-0.
Niall Ferguson
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caley739
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by caley739 »

From the shape of the frame slots I think it is a Neilson built 2-4-0, possibly Class 417.
Niall Ferguson
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by Niall Ferguson »

I'd agree with that. It is a new photo to me.
Niall
WCML55.68
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by WCML55.68 »

Gosh, one dead loco. Has it suffered a boiler explosion perhaps, is there a definitive list?
Jim Summers
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by Jim Summers »

A sad locomotive, but it's at a useful angle, as I spent the last day of the year that's awa' wrestling with the cylinder and slide bars on '615' Class no. 449.

I've only been working on that model for 27 years now. Guess what my New Year's Resolution is.

JimS
Mike 1
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by Mike 1 »

If you made a model of that people would say they were never loaded upside down!

Mike
jimwatt2mm
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Mike 1 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:13 pm
If you made a model of that people would say they were never loaded upside down!
But it's died with its feet in the air!! :lol:

Jim W
tony brenchley
Posts: 333
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by tony brenchley »

The Railway Magazine of 1900 included an article titled "The End of a Locomotive" that included pictures of the breakers yard at St Rollox. I have attached these. 1901 also had a photo of a Conner single being broken up. These may be related to the photo that Niall has posted.

Tony B
Stripping the lagging from the boiler of a doomed locomotives forum.jpg
Stripping the lagging from the boiler of a doomed locomotives forum.jpg (113.34 KiB) Viewed 1621 times
The end of a Racer forum.jpg
The end of a Racer forum.jpg (110.19 KiB) Viewed 1621 times
Stripping the lagging from the boiler of a doomed locomotives forum.jpg
Stripping the lagging from the boiler of a doomed locomotives forum.jpg (113.34 KiB) Viewed 1621 times
Photo from RM 1901 to follow
tony brenchley
Posts: 333
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by tony brenchley »

The photo from 1901.The engine is identified as No 1228.

Tony B
CR No 1228 with driving wheels and other fittings removed forum.jpg
CR No 1228 with driving wheels and other fittings removed forum.jpg (108.04 KiB) Viewed 1621 times
tony brenchley
Posts: 333
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by tony brenchley »

Oopps. Here is the third photo from 1900.

Tony B
Loading the scrap from broken up locomotives forum.jpg
Loading the scrap from broken up locomotives forum.jpg (104.32 KiB) Viewed 1620 times
WCML55.68
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by WCML55.68 »

Fascinating series of pictures. Of interest is the Condemned symbol, white cross within a circle, which is still used. When was that first used?

Back to the original photo, I still think this unidentified loco might have been the subject of a boiler explosion, close examination shows theres considerable outwards disruption to the boiler flue tubes, the frame above, or below!, the crosshead seems to be bent and much damage to the paintwork on the frames behind the missing lagging which I think would be consistent with escaping steam.
dunalastairv
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by dunalastairv »

I agree that it must have suffered a boiler explosion, which was relatively unusual by the 1890s. Consequently I would have thought there must be an accident report or similar somewhere in the archives which gives details. That said, I'm not sure where you'd start such a search, especially with the current Covid restrictions, but now the class has been identified, finding the right number ought to be more straightforward.

Michael.
WCML55.68
Posts: 254
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by WCML55.68 »

I have two books on Boiler Explosions, the CR only figures in one of those - 3 times, 5th April 1855, CR 51 at Greenock where the bottom of the boiler split, 7th April 1856 near Quintinshill where the firebox crown sheet split forcing the grate down on to the track and blowing the engine forwards, leaving behind its three pairs of wheels , and 23 March 1872 Bridge of Dun which was an ex-SNER loco built 1857 where the boiler was completely stripped from the firebox and smokebox. No further details help ID. So I think the only contender could be the first but too early?

Found this on the net.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=yhet19
Alan K
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by Alan K »

One clue to the date of the incident would be that there appears to be a wheel type dart on the smokebox door which would suggest a rebuild and the wheel only came in with Lambie's time. So the absolutely earliest would be 1891....

Alan
David Blevins
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by David Blevins »

Accident at Coupar Angus 20/10/1899
A very Brief extract from the Official Accident Report:-
The 7.55 Express Perth to Aberdeen collided with the Special Cattle & Goods Train at Coupar Angus. It struck CR No. 431 2-4-0 on the right hand side and entirely destroyed it, it's Boiler being ripped open. This Loco was withdrawn in 1899 after the accident - the photograph could be it's Final Farewell.
I have a copy of the full Accident Report on file, if anyone requires further details, Names of the Crew and Fatalities, sadly.
It could make an Interesting article for The True Line Magazine if the Photograph was included.
David Blevins.
MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 499
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

There's a matching picture of the express train locomotive (Lambie No.13) after the accident in the Wagon Book, p. 214. No.13 fared better than No.431, being rebuilt and lasting long enough to receive LMS No.14308.

Best

Mike
Angus McIntosh
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by Angus McIntosh »

Interesting photographs of the St Rollox breakers yard showing areas and items of locomotive design and construction not normally seen.
This must have been very hard labour with only sledge hammers, cold chisels, crowbars and large spanners as tools, plus working outdoors.

Angus
WCML55.68
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by WCML55.68 »

And did they use asbestos to lag the boilers?
David Blevins
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by David Blevins »

This is a Photo of CR No. 431, 2-4-0, as rebuilt by Drummond, before it's sad demise as depicted in the original photograph, after the collision at Coupar Angus, when the Driver George Pyper made a mistake and unfortunately lost his life.
David Blevins.
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CR No. 431 2-4-0.jpg
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Barry Rhys
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by Barry Rhys »

David Blevins wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:55 pm
I have a copy of the full Accident Report on file, if anyone requires further details, Names of the Crew and Fatalities, sadly.
It could make an Interesting article for The True Line Magazine if the Photograph was included.
David Blevins.
A document 'Accident Returns: Extract for the Accident at Coupar Angus on 20th October 1899', which is a photocopy of a 6-page Accident Report document sent to the Caledonian Railway by the Board of Trade Railway Department on 14th December 1899, is available as a pdf in the online Railways Archive here: https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsu ... docID=3167.

From its title I assume this is just an extract of the full report that David refers to, but still contains a lot of detail and includes the statements from the railway staff involved which really make the accident report feel very personal. In fact the statement from the surviving fireman of the goods train locomotive No 431 that is the subject of the photo is headed "Statement of Charles Kelman, Fireman, taken at Perth Infirmary on November 8th, in the presence of Mr. J. F. M'Intosh, Locomotive Superintendent."

The report makes fascinating reading, and even includes the wagon nos of the 3 cattle wagons destroyed in the accident in addition to the nos and damage sustained by every one of the damaged carriages in the passenger train.

Neil
Half Welsh, 100% Yorkshireman
Niall Ferguson
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by Niall Ferguson »

Here is Lambie 4-4-0 No.13 also after the accident. Thanks for all the info very helpful as always on the forum
Niall
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05541.jpg
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dunalastairv
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by dunalastairv »

By the look of it, these two wagons with their wrecked engines are coupled together here at St. Rollox, which means the two photographs were taken at the same time. Now that must have been an interesting train to work back from Coupar Angus!
WCML55.68
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Re: Unidentified Loco

Post by WCML55.68 »

Would make an interesting model too.....
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