CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
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David Blevins
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by David Blevins »

A view (just) of a Caledonian Railway 10 Ton Hopper Wagon in 1923 at Carlisle Citadel Station.
I came across this photograph while scouring through photos for Waggon Sheet markings, another posting, and i would imagine this is a rare photo of the CR 10 Ton Steel Hopper Wagon with lettering, etc., and should be of Interest to Mike Williams, our Rolling Stock Specialist.

David Blevins.
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W018 10 Ton Hopper Wagon - Carlisle 16-04-1923.jpg
W018 10 Ton Hopper Wagon - Carlisle 16-04-1923.jpg (68.33 KiB) Viewed 2552 times
Last edited by David Blevins on Tue Nov 08, 2022 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RossB
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by RossB »

Good spot David. Makes you wonder what else is lurking in the background of photographs.

Ross
jimwatt2mm
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by jimwatt2mm »

I often find the background of photographs more interesting than the main subject! :?

Jim W
ScottW
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by ScottW »

I’m intrigued as to why a single 10T Hopper Wagon would be sitting in Carlisle Citadel?

Scott
jimwatt2mm
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Could it be coal for the CR station offices, or for the hotel? Was there a 'bunker' somewhere similar to that at Glasgow Central for the hotel there?

Jim W
David Blevins
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by David Blevins »

The 10 Ton Steel Hopper Wagons were Built in 1916 for Carrying Iron Ore originally.
Reading through the "Caledonian Railway Wagons" Book by Mike Williams they were part of a Renewal Programme of 31/12/1915, prior to that Hopper Wagons were constructed of Wood on Steel Underframes, perhaps a shortage of Timber due to the activities of the German Navy blocking the Baltic Ports during the First World War brought about the all Steel Construction. Not sure if the Iron Ore from Spain would have been interrupted by German U-Boats in the Great War but perhaps Iron Ore was unloaded in Cumbria or Mined Locally in Cumbria and then transported to Lanarkshire for the Steel Works. Forty of these Wagons were constructed in 1916, 20 at St Rollox and another further 20 at Motherwell by Hurst Nelson. Would they have run as two sets of 20 wagons for Iron-Ore Traffic unloaded from Ships for transporting to the Steelworks. Certainly this Iron Ore Wagon is a long way from Home, Motherwell- Glasgow- Ardrossan area.
As there is only one Hopper Wagon in the photo attached to a wooden outside framed Van, has it been detached from a rake of Hopper Wagons due to a "Hot" axle box or some other problem.
The photograph is dated 16th., April, 1923, a few years after the Great War/First World War so seems strange to be so Far South, in fact in England.
Used for other Traffic (?) but why so far away from it's original area of work.
Speculation Indeed.

David Blevins.
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

I'd seen the photo (CRA archive No. 440893) before David, but thanks for posting it. The speculation about block trains of these wagons does sound plausible, I'd just love to see the evidence! CR hoppers were not unknown in Carlisle. The photo of the two wooden hoppers in the wagon book on p.106 was taken in the CR goods yard there. Going back to the original photo, it also shows a pre-diagram book 6-ton goods van behind the hopper, the last of which were built in 1885 - so nearly forty years old.

Best

Mike
duncan
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:47 am

Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by duncan »

I have been reading an account of the anti-submarine warfare off southern Ireland in WW1. While a lot of the cargoes are not identified, there is nothing I can find about ore carriers, or ships from Spain. Not sure when the Cumbrian iron ore was worked out, but I think that it is still a definite possibility in 1923.
Duncan
Bill_Gensheet
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by Bill_Gensheet »

duncan wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:00 pm I have been reading an account of the anti-submarine warfare off southern Ireland in WW1. While a lot of the cargoes are not identified, there is nothing I can find about ore carriers, or ships from Spain. Not sure when the Cumbrian iron ore was worked out, but I think that it is still a definite possibility in 1923.
Am aware of at least Beckermet Iron ore still working into mid 1960's - various society visits
Bill
Alan K
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by Alan K »

Is it not more plausible that the reason for the presence of CR hoppers in Cumbria was related to limestone? Limestone/lime is used in iron and steelmaking, and I suspect that limestone from Shap has traditionally always been supplied to the Scottish steel industry. It was certainly the preferred source of supply to Ravenscraig when I worked there in the '60s and '70s.

Alan
caley739
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by caley739 »

The Solway Viaduct was closed to traffic in 1921 and by the 1923 date of the photo any Cumbrian ore traffic would of necessity be routed through Carlisle, but this does not explain the presence at Citadel. Goods traffic was rare there with the goods avoiding lines used almost invariably.

Tom
dunalastairv
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Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by dunalastairv »

An off the cuff suggestion: could it have been used for dropping ballast as part of a track relay in Citadel Station?
David Blevins
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: CR 10 Ton Hopper Wagon

Post by David Blevins »

A very plausible explanation of Lime Stone from Shap. The Wagons seem to be authorised specially at the beginning of the Great War and Built in 1916 probably due to the shortage of Minerals for the Steel Industry/War Effort/Munitions, etc., the German Navy Submarines were operating around most of the UK shores during the Great War and seriously hampered supplies. The Iron Ore mainly came brom Bilbao in Northern Spain through the Irish Sea to Scotland. The other source of Iron Ore from Sweden must have been totally cut-off with the German Navy in total control of the Baltic Sea.
The Iron Ore Mines in Cumbria must have been in Full Production to make up the shortfall.
Due to War Time Measures the Government probably allowed Caledonian Railway Wagons to operate over LNWR Metals to Shap for the much needed Lime-Stone.

David Blevins.
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