Caledonian Barclay

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
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David Elvy
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am

Caledonian Barclay

Post by David Elvy »

I am having a senior moment, I know I have in the last 12 months in a book details about a Barclay tank the Caley ended up owning but I can't find the information again, can anyone help with information regarding this loco, thanks.

David
Dave Lochrie
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Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by Dave Lochrie »

David,
I'll do a full post later tonight, when I get home from work, mean time you can find a pdf image by David Blevin of No781 (nicknamed, less than affectionately, the "tattie roaster" by CR crews) on the "CR 264" post. (re-attached as a direct image)
CR 781.jpg
CR 781.jpg (160.63 KiB) Viewed 7271 times
Dave L
Dave Lochrie
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Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by Dave Lochrie »

CR No781 was acquired in lieu of a debt fromthe Lnarkshre Colliery Co on 1897, having been purchased by them from Andrew Barclay & Co, Works No 772 in 1896 .
It was a standard Barclay 0-4-0ST with 13"x20" cylinders and 3'2" drivers. It was renumbered 1781 sometime in 1912 to make way for a "782 Class" 0-6-0T, giving it the distinction of being the highest numbered Caledonian Loco (if you don't count the RODs). It was allocated No 16000 by the LMS but as withdrawn in 1924, it would be unlikely the number was ever used.
I had always assumed that No 781 lived an obscure life in the Lanarkshire coalfields, but in fact had a more interesting history, being allocated for much of CR days to Dawsholm shed as one of a link of around six 0-4-0STs, used for the Scotstoun Tramway, the Lambhill Sidings in the Possil area as well as some of the private sidings in the immediate vicinity. From his "Memories of the Caledonian in Glasgow", TTL No36 the late J F McEwan talking about the allocation at Dawsholm relates
To these was added the Barclay 0-4-0ST N 781 which was never popular. In fore gear it's links struck the causeway setts and had also the metal cover of the pivot of the canal swing bridge....... Another duty of this engine apart from shunting Possil goods yard was to deliver the coal supplies to Ruchil Hospital boiler yard. The hospital was the terminus of the never completed branch to Hamiltonhill.
I heard that for the building of the 1901 exhibition complex in the Kelvingrove Park No781 was delegated the duty of deliveringmaterial, and to accomplish this the headshunt at Partick Central was extended to run along the Burnhouse Road with a branch leading to the machinery pavilion (old Transport Museum site) while the other line led across Dumbarton Road into the main exhibition site... (accessed using moveable tempory track laid across the roadway and tramway tracks)
He explains that the nickname derived from one driver's observation that it was not even fit to be used as a tattie roaster, a comparison wth the hand propelled baked potato barrows (staple fast-food before the complete dominance of the chip fryer).
Barclay's nevertheless seized on this indirect sales success by including a plate of the loco, in their cotemporary product brochures, in Caledonian passenger livery (as suggested by the white/black/white lining), shown without a number plate, though correctly without the crest which was never carried by saddletanks.
A etched brass kit for the dimensionally similar 14" tank is available in 4mm and 7mm from Mercian (I haven't started mine yet!) In 4mm the number plate for the loco as duplicated in 1912 is available from 247, thanks to a bulkbuy arrangement by Tony B. But I am not sure this would be accurate for my nominally late- Summer 1912 layout. The replacement "782" loco was not completed till October but at what point would the previous number holder be duplicated?
A different LHS picture, showing the front end of No781 attributed Albert Greig's collection appeared on the front of TTL No20 (in the days of limited quality printing. Can I ask if anyone has a modern digital scan of this image (or any other picture of this engine) can you post it, otherwise I'll have to add my crude scan from TTL No20 complete with bleed through from the reverse page! We forget how much we take the current high quality of TTL for granted.

Dave L
dumb buffer
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by dumb buffer »

There's a (rather better quality) print in the archive showing the front LHS of the loco. There seem to be a number of minor differences from the picture above, which might suggest a slightly later date.
781.jpg
781.jpg (113.38 KiB) Viewed 7214 times
Obviously the file is very much compressed to fit here. I've no information on the origins of the photograph. I always thought the Barclay was a better looking engine than the standard CR (ex Neilson) product, but clearly the crews wouldn't have agreed!

Allan F
Dave Lochrie
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Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by Dave Lochrie »

Thanks Allan, that was the picture I was thinking about, I will track down the Barclay's trade brochure image, which is, I'm sure and artist's adaptation of a photo and may not actually be the same engine. The Barclay was a neat looking engine but I'm sure the shorter wheelbase and smaller wheels made for a more spirited ride, especially when venturing out of the sidings. I have never seen a RHS picture, or a picture numbered as No1781 nor do any of the pictures show No781 attached to a standard pug tender, though for the trip along to Possil and down the Hamiltonhill branch, one would surely be needed, the Barclay not even having the luxury of the small bunkers of the standard Drummond (ex Neilson) design.

Dave L
Last edited by Dave Lochrie on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
jim mac
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Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by jim mac »

The photograph uploaded by Allan is the official CR portrait and is included in the 1 Jan 1897 Album of Locomotives on page 17 Volume 2. It is one of the photographs from the Albums, which have not turned up as part of the SRX collection recently copied at NRM. The photographs in the Albums were taken by Turnbull & Sons, Glasgow and to date the whereabouts of the plates are unknown

Is this the image referred to by Dave L.
781, artist's impression.jpg
781, artist's impression.jpg (77.85 KiB) Viewed 7146 times
The cabside numberplate in the original posting may be an odd one; the official photograph follows the rule that contractor built engines carry the Drummond style plate.
jim mac
Dave Lochrie
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Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by Dave Lochrie »

That was the picture I was thinking about, thanks Jim, I hadn't noticed the numberplate anomoly, but seeing the first and third pictures together for the first time shows that the artist's impression was based on the first photo.
There are a few differences the lining and suggestion that the loco is not black, and the illustration omits both the AB works plate and the Caledonian numberplate.
As a totally unsubstantiated possibilitiy, if the loco went back to AB at Kilmarnock prior to hand over to the Caledonian, the finish is certainly ex-works (long shot but does the background match up to other AB works shots?) could the numberplate be non-standard as fitted by AB, or even be a dummy. If you go to this much trouble why then use this photo to create an artists impression missing out both plates (unless this was standard practice for brochure illos).
The in-service shot was taken around 12 months later and 781 has acquired a toolbox alongside the smokebox (at least on the LHS, I'm not falling for that one again, but I would like to know in order to build the model)
Sorry to hear that the originals were not at York as you had obiously hoped, it's seems unlikely they would have been destroyed, more likely "rescued", but that in no-way protects them from future loss.

Dave L
Last edited by Dave Lochrie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
charles d
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Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by charles d »

The Industrial Railway Society handbook for Scotland shows the loco supplied to Hamilton Colliery Co Ltd in 1896 and then acquired by CR as 781 in 1897 "via Andrew Barclay" as part payment of debts. Incidentally the dimensions are quoted as cylinders 14" x 22" and 3' 8" wheels.This latter figure sounds large when looking at the photographs

Charles D
Dave Lochrie
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Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by Dave Lochrie »

That might answer one question Charles, and as usual opens a few more. The figures I quoted came from the last page of the CRA's reprinted "Diagrams & Numbers of Company Locomotives" where No781 doesn't even merit a drawing, and my feelings were that the wheels looked to be larger, say 3'6", and that most other Barclay pugs from around that time were quoted as having either 12" or 14" diameter cylinders, maybe AB measured outside dimensions in their sales material? The inference in the sales material that the loco may be blue seemed familiar, then I remembered that the other Caledonian Railway in Brechin ran their Barclay (No 63?) in CR blue for several years.

Dave L
David Blevins
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Re: Caledonian Barclay

Post by David Blevins »

The Barclay 0-4-0ST has "Lining" at the rear of this Engine, in the CR Goods Livery and the Brochure Photograph, would this have been Standard on all Caledonian Railway 0-4-0ST Engines?

David Blevins.
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