Brake Ends

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
Post Reply
dumb buffer
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Brake Ends

Post by dumb buffer »

In Jim MacIntosh's book the brake ends of coaching stock are described as Vermillion. Now my models, and some others I have seen, are painted the same colour as Caley wagons, i.e. roughly brick red, and matt.

I'm not sure why this is, though I suspect for myself that I found a whole end in bright vermillion, like locomotive buffer beams, just too overpowering.

Would anyone have a view on this?

Allan F
RossB
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by RossB »

This is something I've often wondered when looking at pictures of other peoples models and something I've debated when painting my own. Newly painted stock with bright red ends, white roofs and white rimmed wheels probably would look a bit overpowering but would probably tone down fairly quickly in general service.

Something else to think about is how quickly the paint would fade. Even now red paint does tend to fade fairly quickly if exposed, I remember that my dad's 1996 Vauxhall Corsa turned a very pale red and even pink in places after about 12 years in the open!

As a side question, were red ends only applied to non-corridor stock? I don't remember seeing the preserved brake at Bo'ness being painted as such.

I've attached a pic of an old K's LNWR brake van which I'm using to represent an Ex-WCJS P.31 of 1884 of which the CR inherited 4 such examples. The model is not quite finished and probably not 100% accurate but it does show how I interpreted the paint spec. When I first painted it I did think it looked a bit bright but now that I've gotten used to it I don't think it looks too bad (others may disagree!).

Ross
Attachments
Ex-WCJS P.31 of 1884 in CR livery.
Ex-WCJS P.31 of 1884 in CR livery.
100_2735.JPG (215.85 KiB) Viewed 13421 times
jim mac
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by jim mac »

As far as I can ascertain the pale pink ends originate with John Boyle, who maintains that is the colour vermillion fades to. Vermillion was also used for locomotive buffer beams, signal arms and even post boxes, none of which are modelled with a pale pink finish.
If you model the sides of the coach with a bright fresh livery ("just out of the paint shop") then I suggest the brake end should be vermillion, perhaphs let down with a little white or just a touch of green (the complementary colour) to dull the brightness of vermillion.
I note that Ross is planning to paint the ends of the ducket in vermillion.
The following 1906 illustration shows the red ends but might also re-open the pre-forum debate about whether there were two of four windows in the end of brake vans.
Wemyss Bay Station, brake ends.jpg
Wemyss Bay Station, brake ends.jpg (758.38 KiB) Viewed 13400 times
jim mac
JimG
Posts: 272
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by JimG »

jim mac wrote: If you model the sides of the coach with a bright fresh livery ("just out of the paint shop") then I suggest the brake end should be vermillion, perhaphs let down with a little white or just a touch of green (the complementary colour) to dull the brightness of vermillion.
Does that also apply to brown coaching stock - e.g. Cathcart Circle stock?
The following 1906 illustration shows the red ends but might also re-open the pre-forum debate about whether there were two of four windows in the end of brake vans.
Oh. no. I've just made my four-wheeler brake ends with two windows. :D

Jim.
dumb buffer
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by dumb buffer »

As far as I can ascertain the pale pink ends originate with John Boyle, who maintains that is the colour vermillion fades to.
Tha's almost certainly where I got the idea from!
The following 1906 illustration shows the red ends but might also re-open the pre-forum debate about whether there were two of four windows in the end of brake vans.
That might be considered a provocative remark :D

Allan F
Jim Summers
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by Jim Summers »

I note from the Wemyss Bay picture that a certain group of passengers are wearing Wild West bandit-style face masks.
Now, we can be sure of the colour of these, because they should equate to that of the American railroad engineer's neck kerchiefs. Since I bought one of those in Colorado, I can claim therefore to have the authoritative reference point for the colour of Caledonian Brake Ends.

But I am saying nothing about the number of windows, nor whether it is still bandit country in Wemyss Bay.

Jim S
Dave Lochrie
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by Dave Lochrie »

I think the red faces may be the the artist's attempt to show inbound passengers, either from a fresh crossing from Bute or more likely hinting at the high proportion of bars in Rothesay!

In fairness the artist doesn't seem to distinguish between the carriage sides or ends. I have several references (not contemporary) referring to brake ends being in "Venetian Red" -a note from Duncan Burton from the mid 1970's quotes this and the source as A B Macleod, but there is probably no coincidence that the Southern Railway, Macleod's employer, painted their goods brake vans this colour, a style inherited from the L&SWR and on the LB&SCR dating back to Stroudley. I am aware that Southern modellers and preservationists unable to agree today on whether this colour should be vermillion or venetian red, so this ambiguity is not resticted to us.

Whatever the colour is called I have always used Humbrol Matt 60 for this on both passenger and goods brakes, which looks like a post box red (Vermillion) on the tin but seems paler on application with a bit of weathering and some matt varnish ending-up similar to the tone of faded "crimson" on a BR "blood & custard carriage. I'll try to post a photo, but the effect is pretty similar to Ross's Full Brake, but that may have something to do with the Purple Brown looking a close match to my interpretation, as well.

This shade is also relevant for the body of Gunpowder Vans, and the best reference I have for this is a Carette model of 1920 of a LNWR Gunpowder Van.
LNWR GPVan Carette 1920 original.jpg
LNWR GPVan Carette 1920 original.jpg (126.56 KiB) Viewed 13373 times


Dave L
dumb buffer
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by dumb buffer »

Thank you for the responses on this. If we can't be definitive about Loco Blue then I doubt if we could ever be definitive about Brake Van red. I don't think I had properly thought about it until I found myself looking at the two vehicles below. I note, incidentally from Carter (which I use without entirely trusting it) that passenger brake van ends are described as Vermillion, while Goods brake van ends are described as Regal Red. From looking at various online sources Vermilion appears to be a slightly more orange colour, slightly darker, and definitely "redder" than my passenger Brake, While Regal Red appears to be a slightly darker colour, perhaps a touch more "purplish" than my Goods Brake.

So I'm satisfied that both of these brake ends are probably wrong :? ; whether I change them is another matter. I long ago came to the conclusion that I would paint things the colour I liked unless someone could prove me wrong. The pale pink is probably an aberration, the result of unquestioningly accepting John Boyles advice :roll: .

Allan F
Red Ends.JPG
Red Ends.JPG (27.09 KiB) Viewed 13365 times
charles d
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:30 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by charles d »

At the risk of adding more confusion, wooden mineral wagons in 1950s colour photos can show a general mucky pink hue having, presumably, faded from the various red tones they were painted pre WW2. The great British weather could also remove white lettering leaving the black shading(if applied) black and the lettering itself in body colour. A right can of worms!

Charles Davidson
John Paton
Posts: 186
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by John Paton »

Here is another example of CR publicity with a red-ended vehicle, though in this case not a brake. I suspect that this may be an artist's inexactitude.

John Paton
Attachments
CR timetable cover.jpg
CR timetable cover.jpg (126.79 KiB) Viewed 13329 times
David Elvy
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am

Re: Brake Ends

Post by David Elvy »

I am sure this question has already been asked but I can't find where.

If the end of a passenger brake has the brake compartment the brake end is red, one of the models photographed has the brake ducket biased to one end which I can understand why the end nearest the ducket is red, Q1 are there any brake passenger vehicles with only one end painted red, Q2 are both ends of a passenger brake vehicle painted red, are there any easy to understand rules where brake coach ends are concerned?

David
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by jimwatt2mm »

David Elvy wrote:I am sure this question has already been asked but I can't find where.

If the end of a passenger brake has the brake compartment the brake end is red, one of the models photographed has the brake ducket biased to one end which I can understand why the end nearest the ducket is red, Q1 are there any brake passenger vehicles with only one end painted red, Q2 are both ends of a passenger brake vehicle painted red, are there any easy to understand rules where brake coach ends are concerned?

David
Referring to the livery 'bible', on p259:

'The Brake ends of coaching stock were vermilion and it is suggested from photographs that that the ends of guards duckets were also vermilion (plate 33). What is not known is the colour of the vehicle ends when the Brake compartment was in the middle of the coach.

Jim W
David Elvy
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am

Re: Brake Ends

Post by David Elvy »

Jim

I did consult the livery bible first, for some reason I have it in my head that someone had answered more than this, Ross has painted the ends of his vehicle red and the vehicle duckets aren't at the end, could Ross possibly have evidence to suggest this was normal practice?
I've already avoided making one mistake by consulting the bible and as I'm about to paint a couple of brake vehicles I thought I would ask the question before making an assumption, advice or suggestions appreciated?

David
MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 490
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

I have an alternative theory in the forthcoming carriage book. Don't paint anything yet, David

Best

Mike
RossB
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by RossB »

David
I have no evidence of this being the normal practice. I just remembered reading that brake ends were red so thought that if brake ends of coaches were red then full brake ends could be as well.

The red end of the duckets was based on a picture I saw of a 45' centre brake composite where the ends looked a lot lighter than the main body colour. It could just have been the lighting conditions making then look lighter but I thought I try it out to see how it looked. I think the picture might have been it the livery book, from what I remember it was cropped in quite close so you couldn't see the ends to have a comparison.

I would be very interested in reading your theory Mike, been looking forward to the carriage book for a while now.

Ross
David Elvy
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am

Re: Brake Ends

Post by David Elvy »

Mike

That's not nice, I now have to suffer the wait, counting the hours until I can get a copy.

David
MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 490
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

OK David

In the 1897 livery description, its last sentence is ‘The ends of passenger brake vans are vermilion.’ Read that carefully and then answer these two questions

1. What does it say?

2. What does it NOT say?

There are plenty of other reasons to buy the book.

Best

Mike
David Elvy
Posts: 453
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am

Re: Brake Ends

Post by David Elvy »

:) thanks

Nice crisp notes at the ready to buy my copy

David
jim mac
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Re: Brake Ends

Post by jim mac »

As a taster this is the final design for the cover of the Carriage book
CR carriages (Forum).jpg
CR carriages (Forum).jpg (251.75 KiB) Viewed 12045 times
and if you want to get your copy ordered you will find a Flyer in TTL130, which should be delivered by the end of the week.
It is still planned to launch the book at Warley and to have it on sale at our December meeting.
jim mac
Post Reply