Wartime 65' carriage photos

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
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Barry Rhys
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:25 am

Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by Barry Rhys »

Here I am, trying to do everything by memory again as I still haven't unpacked my Caley reading materials since arriving back in the UK 18 months ago!

Unfortunately I have forgotten the source of the following two photos that I saved on my drive some years ago.
CR 65' corridor stock during !st World War (1) Compressed.jpg
CR 65' corridor stock during !st World War (1) Compressed.jpg (160 KiB) Viewed 9099 times
CR 65' corridor stock during 1st World War (2) Compressed.jpg
CR 65' corridor stock during 1st World War (2) Compressed.jpg (127.94 KiB) Viewed 9099 times
These photos reside somewhere in the Internet, unfortunately I have no idea where. According to the accompanying text that I remember, they were taken by an Australian soldier - probably in contravention of regulations - whle travelling in Scotland during the First World War. I seem to remember the location was somewhere in the Highlands. The photos appear to have been taken within a few minutes of each other, as the same soldiers can be identified in the 2nd photo probably climbing into the carriage ready for departure. Not being familiar with uniforms and insignia of the time I have no idea whether these men belong to the same regiment - could a Scot in kilt, perhaps an officer, belong to the same regiment as those around him wearing puttees and trousers?

Looking at the 2 Caledonian carriages, I believe both are 65' corridor stock of the later elliptical roof lots. The far carriage in the 2nd photo appears to be one of the 6 x Dia.95B brake composites showing some lovely roof detail, and the near carriage seen in both photos probably a Dia.96 third. An interesting feature of which I was unaware is, clearly seen in the 1st photo, a vertical moulding extending below the waist panelling to floor level separating the lower panelling between the adjacent large corridor windows. Was this feature common to all batches of the Dia.96 thirds (presumably repeated between the further pair of adjacent windows too)? Looking through the Diagrams illustrated on Jim Smellie's Caley Coaches website ( here ) I wonder whether this feature also appeared on the Dia.94 corridor composites, which are the only other 65' corridors having an adjacent pair of large corridor windows. Or maybe even on other lengthy panels, for example on the Dia.95B below the lavatory window?

The other feature I would like to invite comment on is the prominent patches in the waist panelling of the near carriage. In the original text I remember the writer stating that the photos themselves (presumably the original glass plates) had been crudely altered to censor the carriage insignia for ulterior wartime motives, however this is clearly incorrect since the patches on the carriage are of identical shapes in both photos! However does anyone know whether these patches would've been painted onto the waist panelling to deliberately cover over their company insignia, nos. etc to prevent identification in wartime conditions, or whether the patches are simply unrepaired damage to the paintwork? Is anyone aware of attempts to hide identification of railway stock during the First World War period?

Comments on a postcard to..... well just post a message here.

Thanks, Neil
Half Welsh, 100% Yorkshireman
crabapple
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:53 pm

Re: Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by crabapple »

The soldier on the LH side and the one seated are both US troops. I think the one seated is a master sargeant.

The US entered WW1 on 6 April 1917 but it took most of 1917 to mobilise and get troops across the ocean.

So I speculate that the photos were taken in the spring or summer of 1918 by which time US troops were entering France via the UK at the rate of 10,000 per week.

The lance corporal in the centre wearing the tammy is from the tartan Black Watch.

Not sure about the other two; the officer far right is not wearing Sam Brown cross strap and holster which suggests that he is either not from a UK regiment or he may be an RTO, a railway transport officer, who regulated the passage of all troops by train. They would be found at main line stations and other railheads important to troop movements.

KR, Roger
Barry Rhys
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by Barry Rhys »

I've been prompted to bring this post back from the mists of time by Jim Summers's fascinating presentation about the Caley in Wartime at the recent CRA AGM in Carlisle. I remembered my post with the photos of the soldiers and the Grampian carriages above and enquired of Jim and the rest of the audience whether anyone could answer the question regarding the patches in the carriage waist panels apparently obscuring - intentionally or unintentionally - identification of the carriage.

The general feeling expressed by several members present was that there is no way that identification aids - basically the prominent painted carriage numbers, not the carriage numberplates - would have been intentionally obscured as they would be vital for vehicle traffic planning, monitoring etc. I have no idea as to how the obscuring took place, possibly just through wear, and am not trying to suggest it was intentional; however if the painted numbers were so immediately vital why wouldn't they have been replaced even by rough temporary painting?

The topic seemed to be of interest so I would welcome comment here. Also the location (possibly Highland Railway), wartime situation, and the other carriages visible in the train are of interest. I seem to remember that the photos, which I think I downloaded from a web location, were referred to in a Highland Railway Society journal discovered in a Mk 1 carriage in the goods yard at Rogart station, Sutherland - but that's another story.

Neil
Half Welsh, 100% Yorkshireman
RossB
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by RossB »

Both coaches also appear to be missing company crests on their lower panels. Are these patches roughly were numbers and insignia would normally be applied?

Ross
dunalastairv
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by dunalastairv »

Isn't it more likely that the negative or prints have had carriage numbers and crests erased by the Censor, rather than the actual vehicles? It looks perfectly possible from the photographs themselves. As far as I know, this location hasn't been identified but I can confirm without a doubt that it isn't Rogart. I removed the frame from the North Box here - now on display at Kidderminster Museum - and the box/goods shed position just doesn't fit the Rogart layout.
Barry Rhys
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by Barry Rhys »

dunalastairv wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:16 pm
As far as I know, this location hasn't been identified but I can confirm without a doubt that it isn't Rogart. I removed the frame from the North Box here - now on display at Kidderminster Museum - and the box/goods shed position just doesn't fit the Rogart layout.
Have to answer this briefly. Sorry to have confused you, but I wasn't in any way suggesting that the photo was Rogart - I can also confirm without a doubt that it isn't Rogart. The signal box on the station platform, possibly from which you removed the frame, is now full of bicycles owned by the nice couple living in the station building who now run a self-catering business from three Mk 1 coaches parked in the former goods yard.

The business is called Sleeperzzz and is a fantastic place from which to have a holiday. The Mk 1's, while having been converted for self-catering residence, have retained their interiors as much as possible. So for example in the lounge compartment all of the overhead reading lights and luggage racks are retained, and in the luggage racks are stored loads of reading material - including lots of Highland Railway Society journals, from which I probably noted down the photo internet reference. My wife and I took 2 of the aforementioned bikes on a train to Brora then cycled back over the hills and have since had another memorable holiday there - the railway-loving couple even offer 10% discount for those like us who arrive by train.

Sorry to bore everyone, I didn't intend to relate the background story.

Neil
Half Welsh, 100% Yorkshireman
Mike 1
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by Mike 1 »

dunalastairv wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:16 pm
Isn't it more likely that the negative or prints have had carriage numbers and crests erased by the Censor, rather than the actual vehicles?
That was my thought too, but the shape of the blacking out looks too similar on the two pictures - the outline is just the same. On the other hand, f it was on the actual carriage one might have thought it would be neater.

Mike
Dave John
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by Dave John »

I remember being puzzled the first time the pics were shown.

I'd agree that the patches are similar in shape, but that they look too randomly shaped to be painted out. Even whitewashed out it would surely be more of a block than those. Also in the second picture only one coach appears to have them.

Just a thought, I wonder if they have been blacked out on a temporary basis just so the photographer doesn't get into trouble with the sensor? If so then my guess would be a quick daub with some mud. Readily available in Scotland and easily washed off afterwards.

Might be a daft idea but you never know.
Barry Rhys
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Wartime 65' carriage photos

Post by Barry Rhys »

Now that really does sound a sensible suggestion - unexpected perhaps but the reasoning certainly matches the visibles!

Perhaps we should start looking for missing turfs on the grass bank next to the carriages?

Neil
Half Welsh, 100% Yorkshireman
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