Claughtons in Scotland

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
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jim mac
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Claughtons in Scotland

Post by jim mac »

A query has been raised by an other group:
"I have a query about a photograph which shows an ex-LNWR Claughton on Polmadie shed.
It is in the Wild Swan book on LMS Sheds in Scotland, Vol 5, I think. There is a superb photograph of Polmadie shed and the caption explains that the building on the right was a new workshop built in 1924. Outside the building is an original Claughton with ROD tender and with cut-down chimney and dome as was done about 1928 to some Claughtons for use on the LMS Northern Division (ie Scotland).
This of course was only done after the introduction of the Scots in 1927 and when there were enough of them in service to displace Claughtons, some of which went to the Midland Division and others, apparently, to the Northern Division. Some of these Claughtons are known to have got to Edinburgh on rugby specials but whether they actually had regular workings north of Carlisle is something of a mystery. Rebuilt Claughtons (ie those rebuilt with large boilers) are known to have had regular turns into St Enoch. But what the original engines actually did is uncertain."

Any information received will be passed on.
jim mac
caley739
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by caley739 »

This interesting question arises yet again. There is another thread on this forum, where quoted sightings unfortunately relate mainly to reboilered 5XP Claughtons.

The Claughton in the Polmadie photo has an ROD tender indicating that it was likely allocated to a Midland Division shed, probabley Leeds Holbeck. The ROD tenders with greater water capacity were fitted because distances between water troughs on the Midland were greater than on their native L&NWR.

There is a suggestion in the question that Claughtons were allocated to the Northern Division. So far I have not found a shred of evidence to support this. The workings of the most likely sheds,Corkerhill,Polmadie,and Kingmoor did get some coverage in the contemporary railway press, but nothing found on Scottish allocation. However that they did work into Scotland is undoubted.

My speculation, and it is only speculation,is that if they had regular workings it was on the Lancashire trains, Liverpool/Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow. These trains always seemed to be the poor relation in terms of motive power in LMS & BR days. Well into the 1960s,Newton Heath Manchester and Bank Hall Liverpool, both Central Division were using 6P (formerly 5XP) Stanier Jubilee 4-6-0s on these trains when most regular Anglo Scottish trains had a Pacific or at least a Royal Scot 7P 4-6-0. Before the Jubilees, 5XP Patriot or Baby Scot 4-6-0s were used,and before them reboilered 5XP Claughton 4-6-0s.It is not a great leap of faith to suggest that original Claughtons might also have been used. In early LMS days Preston shed, Western Division seemed to play the main role in providing power for these trains. Initial allocation of Patriots was to Polmadie and Preston for these trains,although the Preston allocation soon transferred to Newton Heath.

To summarise , Lancashire trains worked by Preston shed (and maybe also Patricroft).

That's my tuppence worth

Tom Robertson
Brian Hayes
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:00 pm

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by Brian Hayes »

The contribution by Tom is thoughtful and invaluable. Within the L&NWRS, this possible working from Preston has never been mentioned. Research and consideration can pursue this further.

Thank you Tom,

Brian.
lms14509
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by lms14509 »

There is reference in the contemporary R.C.T.S. Railway Observer's of Large Claughton workings. From December 1930 5906,5910,5953,5970 and 5993 of Preston were noted on the 10:52 A.M. Preston-Carlisle, then light engine Carlisle to Dumfries to work the 2:10 Dumfries Carlisle slow,followed by the 4:20 P.M. Carlisle-Preston.

In July 1931 5910,5953 were noted on the Thames-Clyde on different days. In 1932 5933 had a regular slot on the 6:10 Preston-Glasgow returning on the 10:20 Glasgow-Manchester and Liverpool. The following year, 1933 a large CLaughton regularly worked the 12:58 Carlisle- Glasgow St.Enoch returning on the 5:30 P.M. with a crew from Kingmoor.

The first credited working of Claughton's to Glasgow was claimed in the Observer in 1929 when 5912,5915,5917,5933,5976,5979 all worked football specials via the G&SW route to Central Station on 13 April.The following year 5915,5979 and 6017 were all noted hauling specials for the Wales Vs Scotland Rugby International

Allan
Brian Hayes
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:00 pm

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by Brian Hayes »

Allan,

Thank you very much for your research which is greatly appreciated. The 6.10 Preston - Glasgow Central and 10.20 Glasgow Central - Preston Diagram is very interesting. I wonder if any photographs exist of these trains north of the Border. The working to Dumfries, together with others over the GSWR were known, but this is so rewarding even if the diagram only lasted a few months.

Brian.
caley739
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by caley739 »

On further reflection my comment on the Claughton outside the Polmadie repair shop being a Midland Division engine might not necessarily be correct. Distance between water troughs at Floriston and Strawfank was also much greater than the approximately 30 miles standard on the Western Division. In "Claughtons & Patriot 4-6-0s" by Toms/Essery 5933, mentioned in Allan's post, is shown as having an ROD tender. So the Polmadie photo might actually show a Preston engine.

Details of engine allocations in early LMS days are rather elusive, but an article in LMS Jounal No 1 by William Dunn "Allocation of Engines Western A Division 1926" shows Preston mainline passenger power as Claughtons 6023-6025, L&Y class "8" 10450-10452, and Prince of Wales 5752-5761. The circulars mentioned in the article refer to "Ultimate Allocations", the intention seeminly being to have blocks of consecutive numbers at each shed. It all looks neat and tidy on paper, but if these allocations were ever actually achieved, I suspect they did not last for long in the rough and tumble of real life operation. However it does suggest that 3 Claughtons were available for through working to Glasgow. I'm not aware of L&Y Dreadnoughts or Prince of Wales being used on any regular basis for through working. (Just waiting to be proved wrong on this point!).

The initial allocation of Patriots 5547-5551 in 1934 between Polmadie and Preston specifically for the Lancashire through workings shows the same level of allocation. It does raise the question , what did Polmadie use on their turns in pre Patriot days? If it was these same Preston Claughtons it looks like only one diagram or perhaps two could be covered, but if they used their Standard Compound 4-4-0s all regular trains could be covered, although Claughtons were class 5 as against class 4 for the Compounds. Another possibility is that they only went as far as Carlisle at that time with the workings continued by Upperby or Preston. But if well paid mileage turns were available to Preston men you could assume that Polmadie men would want their share of the action.

Tom Robertson
Brian Hayes
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:00 pm

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by Brian Hayes »

I had always presumed that the water troughs at Wamphray were in use in the 1930's. Without this set in operation, I imagine that the column at Beattock would have been heavily used. It is interesting that the term 'Rebuilt Claughton' is used when discussing the Preston Diagrams. The larger boiler may have been a deciding factor in relation to train loads and the gradients involved. Did the alteration to permit Claughtons to operate on the Midland permit use by the Northern Division on both the CR and GSWR without further alteration? Were the Holbeck Claughtons used on the Midland, rebuilt locomotives? I had always assumed that GSWR clearance automatically included CR clearance as the line from Carlisle to Gretna Junction would be used. Clarification on these points would be appreciated.

Brian.
lms14509
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by lms14509 »

Brian,

Thank you for your kind words- only too glad to help. The actual research itself was done several years ago in conjunction with Stuart Rankin, as part of a joint contirbution to the Journal of the Glasgow and South Western Railway Association (!) The Large boilered CLaughton has always been a personal favourite of mine.

The late J.J. Cunningham, a well known Enthusiast photographer did publish several views of the larger Claughtons working on these turns-but I am afraid I do not have any of the views I have seen published on the internet in various places (I believer Flickr was one ).

To answer Tom; to my knowledge the LMS Standard Compound's were specifically used throughout the Northern Division as "the" top link locomotives - whether directly ordered by Euston- or Buchanan Street desired to be seen towing the line ; that was what happened. This high regard held from the inital allocation in 1925 thru' to the arrival of the Royal Scots in 1927.Right up until the outbreak of war in 1939 the compounds retained the full passenger livery of crimson lake, even tho' by then they had slipped far behind the Stanier classes and Scots, Patriots etc.

I am not sure about the L&Y 8's working thru' to Glasgow Central - having assumed they were replaced at Carlisle by the compounds.

Allan
caley739
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by caley739 »

Brian
A lot of questions! I will try to shed some light based mainly on gleanings from the Toms/Essery "Claughton and Patriot 4-6-0s" book, but they are not infallible,nor am I.

I confess that this is the first time I have seen reference to water troughs at Wamphray, always having assumed that they were only present at Floriston and Strawfank about 65 miles apart. I think there was also a set at New Cumnock on the G&SW section but water could be taken at Dumfries and Kilmarnock on that line. Reference to the Northern Division Sectional Appendix of 1937 finds nothing on water troughs. Perhaps another member could comment on this Wamphray question?

The first transfers noted to the Midland Division are (about 1928?);
Holbeck 5971/77/78/84,6001/05/25 (7 locos).
Durranhill 5900/23/32/44/49/60 (6 locos).
Kentish Town 5973/4 (2 locos).
These are all orignal boiler and noted as altered to Midland loading gauge with ROD tender.
Further transfers noted in 1930 are;
Holbeck 5905/12/33/40/42/68/76 (7 locos).
These are all original boiler and noted as altered to Northern Division loading gauge with ROD tender.
So far I have not figured out what the difference is but it seems to suggest that the Northern Division loading gauge was more restrictive than the Midland one.

They say that the reboilered engines with Caprotti valve gear went to Longsight and Holyhead and those retaining Walschaerts valve gear went to Preston shed to replace L&Y Dreadnoughts for working the Scottish expresses from Liverpool and Manchester. If they mean all 10 of them they were 5906/10/53/70/72/86.93/99,6004/17. Only 6017 is noted as having an ROD tender and all to Northern Division loading gauge. However Allan's post notes 5910 and 5953 on The Thames-Clyde in 1931 which means that at least some of them were at Holbeck. They make a point of saying that these reboilered engines were maintained in superb condition!

Much of this information could be incomplete and seems to be based on photographs and reported sightings rather than official information. They list 43 engines as known to have been altered to Midland loading gauge and 33 as known to be altered to Northern Division Loading gauge. Only 5906/08,6029 appear on both lists. These are all reboilered ones.

Like you I have always assumed that there were no significant restrictions on Caley and G&SW engines working on each others lines. Currock shed Carlisle closed in 1924 with men and engines absorbed into the links at Kingmoor. Corkerhill very early in Grouping times had a working with one of their 4-6-0s from Central to Carlisle. They also had several fill-in turns round the Cathcart Circle using all varieties of their 4-6-0s,4-4-0s, and 0-6-0s. Caledonian engines were soon transferred to most if not all G&SW section sheds.

Even in Caledonian times I'm sure that L&NWR engines were authorised to work as far as Gretna in connection with the vast munitions traffic during the Great War. I have a postcard of a L&NWR Experiment 4-6-0 on a goods train at Port Carlisle Branch Junction. It has a target board in front of the chimney. Its indistinct but it could bear an "M". What did this mean? Could it it be something like military or munitions? More prosaicly it might just mean a transfer job to the Midland at Durranhill.

Sightings of engines nominally out of gauge for Northern Division are not too unusual . I can think of an L&Y Dreadnought and L&NWR Prince of Wales at Central and a Midland 3P Belpaire 4-4-0 at Dumfries. The actual height of an engine must have depended on several factors like amount of water in the boiler,coal in the firefox,ash and clinker in the ashpan,overhang on curves,bounce in the springs etc. (not sure if the last is a correct technical term). Did the margin for error mean that for most of the time a nominally out of gauge engine could pass without incident?

I don't know if these ramblings will enlighten or confuse. Most likely they could lead to further interesting debate. :)

Tom Robertson
Brian Hayes
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:00 pm

Re: Claughtons in Scotland

Post by Brian Hayes »

Gentlemen,

Your research into this subject is greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time, and if through further research and discussion in L&NWRS circles,, relevant facts can be ascertained, I will share them with you all on this Forum.

Brian.
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