125 class Dundee Bogie

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

I am hoping to model one of the above. On the CRASSOC CD-Rom of loco drawings, the 125 class has a stovepipe chimney, cab with curved-back front at roof level and the same width as the splashers plus a three-quarter roof, the whistle is behind the chimney and the safety valves are on the firebox. In "Caledonian Railway Carriages" on p68, plate 3.9 shows a photograph of the same class with a capped chimney, narrower half-roofed cab with straight front at roof level, whistle in front of the cab and safety valves on the dome. Starting from the example of the original and rebuild of the 179 Oban bogies, some of the features of the 125 that seem to be what one would expect of a McIntosh rebuild are on the latter (flared chimney) but it also has what seems to be an earlier safety valve location (on the dome) and a less covered cab. Can anyone explain, please? I would like to model one as it might have been around 1915. Happy New Year, Graham
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by jimwatt2mm »

This is a Drummond rebuild with a Drummond boiler and a Stirling cab. Drummond always fitted the safety valves on the dome in order to reduce the number of openings in the boiler. I have a photo of 2-4-0 No 482 which has the same combination and also one of 92 class No.95 as LMS 15128 which looks odd at first because it has been fitted with a Drummond boiler with the safety valve on top of the dome.

Jim W
jim mac
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by jim mac »

Graham
As Jim W has already pointed out this class was reboilered by Drummond hence the different appearance in the photographs; unfortunately your proposed 1915 date does not work as the final engine was withdrawn in August 1910, with the first being withdrawn in March 1905. However there is always modeller licence!
Glad to have you on board, I hope you find the CRA a useful group to belong to.
jim mac
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Thanks to both Jims for these insights. I'd assumed that they might not have lasted but I'm going to imagine the branch to Loch Fyne from Dalmally had been built, to allow improved rail + boat tours from Glasgow and the south, so drafting a 125 in for light duties in its dotage is so much smaller modeller's licence that I can live with it. Does any one know what the Drummond boiler's dimensions would be, please? Diameter? Centre line height? Thanks for the welcome, I have always lived south of the border (sometimes by thousands of miles) but my mother was a bairn of Falkirk. Best wishes, Graham
dalziel
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by dalziel »

Graham,
You do not say what scale you are modelling in. I am part way into building a 7mm scale model of the original loco build, this from etchings produced for my personal use, initially for the loco hand drawn and later for the 1840 gallon tender on CAD. I have some not very legible drawings for the loco and tender but they do not cover the rebuild of the loco. Attached for your interest is a photo of the loco part built.

David G.
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Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Wow! Unfortunately, I am building in 00. I wonder if your etches would scale down, if only for the fretted splasher!
Jim Summers
Posts: 916
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Jim Summers »

Graham,
I may be able to help you with etches for the splashers and sides. Many years a, probably 30-odd), I had some done on my behalf in 4mm.

I still want to build one myself, but I think I can find some spares of the etches for you. I'll have a look later today. Send me a PM with your details, if you want to take this further.

Of course, a condition will be that you keep all of us on the Forum informed about your progress!

Jim S
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Thanks to Jim, I now have the most beautiful pierced splashers and the cab sides for an unrebuilt engine. Progress so far has been limited to admiring them and discussing with Jim whether 28mm Romford wheels would foul the 29mm diameter splashers. The answer seems to be 'yes' so 27mm wheels will be bought. A trip to family in Qatar in two weeks will give me the chance to mark out the parts for a brass footplate and work out the rebuild's cab and side-rod splashers. I will treat the cylinder above the splasher cosmetic and separate from the main cylinder under the footplate. Can't wait. Thanks for the generosity and friendship to a new member, Graham
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Hi Folks (especially Dalziel). In the 125 class, the splashers are very large, reaching almost half way up the boiler. Building in 00, I'm having the main frames end in front of the driving wheels and a separate subframe for the bogie. On the main chassis, would you shape the frames so that they mirror the driving wheel splasher tops? Pro is stiffness, lots of metal to fasten the motor to, and ease of fitting the splasher tops, especially in the cab. Cons ??? Best wishes, Graham
dalziel
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by dalziel »

Graham,
My frames in 7mm scale are full length but I beginning to think that I might have to indulge in a bit of jiggery pokery to get the thing to go round corners! Outside cylinders and bogie wheels with splashers are not the ideal combinationfor model railway track radii. I have profiled the top of the frames to prototypical shape extending above footplate level based on the drawings I have. I have attached a photo of the frames so you can see what I have done. I have taken a number of photos but not sure how many can be posted so if you send me a PM with your e mail address I will send you some more along with scans of the 'Locomotive Engine' drawings which might help you. The 10"x8" glossy photo of the original Neilson GA is barely legible and I don't think you would be able to read a scan from it.

David Gallacher.
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Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Wow, that's amazing. The springs are unusual, aren't they. I'm still thinking of going for a shorter frame ending just forward of the front driving wheel with a horizontal extension under the smokebox, screwed and soldered onto a rectangular frame spacer, from which to hang the bogie and cylinders. I'm thinking of having a frame all the way up the front splasher with the joint between body and chassis around it, but keeping the rear flatter with the splasher as part of the cab superstructure. I still don't know where the pick-ups will go. What are you doing about picking up power? Best wishes, Graham
dalziel
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by dalziel »

Graham,
Springs, bearings and hornguides are lost wax brass castings, now unfortunately as many other nice bits no longer available. I think you should perhaps draw a cross section through the loco, the top profile on my frames are as the prototype, if you extend upwards too far you will have conflict with the boiler, unless you are prepared to carve a large chunk off the bottom, more perhaps than is needed to accommodate the motor and frame spacing on models, unless you are into P4 or S7, is narrower than the prototype whilst you will want the boiler at the correct diameter. My loco has cast iron wheels insulated on one side so American pickup system, from tender wheels on one side and loco wheels on the other with an insulated draw bar between. Making the cylinders part of the body will mean that you will need to remove the connecting rods from the front crankpin to separate body and frames.

David Gallacher
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Yes, You make a good point on the frames, David. Thanks. I will follow.

The way I tackled the cylinders on the 179 I built recently was to have two thirds of the cylinder attached to the chassis, with all the moving parts attached, and then a dummy third attached to the body. The solebar hides the joint. It works fine. I assume the 125 has two slidebars, only one is visible in all the diagrams and photos.

I have ordered the wheels so am committed now! Your model clarifies the frame shape between the drivers.

Best wishes, Graham
dalziel
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by dalziel »

Graham,
Yes there are two slide bars, you may have picked up from the Willie Stewart drawing that they are channel shaped with the crosshead running inside the channels. I have arranged the cylinders as part of the frames projecting up through a cut out in the footplate so that there is a complete running 'chassis' and a separate 'body' I have a nice re-built 179 class Oban bogie which has the cylinders attached to the body, to separate, the front crankpin needs to be removed, which with cast iron wheels is simply a matter of unscrewing the crankpin, but perhaps not so straightforward in 4mm scale

David Gallacher
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Chassis so far
Chassis so far
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In response to Jim Summers who very generously donated the splashers, here are post a couple of rather poor photos (I don't seem to be able to take close-ups) of progress so far. The boiler is not fastened on but I have the basis of the composition reasonably satisfactory. That is, the boiler sits in roughly the correct place under the cab front windows and the cab is reasonably square. As it is the rebuilt version, I am working off photos for the cab shape and height. The footplate is too long at the back but it fits beautifully onto my cork sanding block that I use as a base for soldering bits on. I will cut it shorter fairly soon.
Attachments
Body parts beginning to fit together
Body parts beginning to fit together
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Graham Tipple
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Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

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It's one step forward and two back on this build. I don't know about other scratchbuilders but I find I am making two of most parts before I get it near enough right. Here is my chassis which has had the front end remade and detachable. I have added a cutout piece to indicate the wonderful suspension system and painted the chassis anthracite. It's all a bit tight, though, and there is obviously enough friction to cause the grub screw on the drive axle to loosen just a tad and cause it to spin uselessly. I'll oil it all but I suspect there's something more basic wrong.

I've modified a GBL 123 tender, contributed kindly by Steve Parsons, and pivoted it on the rear axle. I had to scratchbuild a brass chassis to which the top is not yet fastened. I need to add the steps at the front. The front two thirds is slowly being filled with lead and I've added some offcuts to mix in with the coal.


Best wishes to all, Graham
Alan K
Posts: 360
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Alan K »

[quote= I don't know about other scratchbuilders but I find I am making two of most parts before I get it near enough right.[/quote]

Yup- that sounds familiar to me! Haven't ever built a tender engine so can't help, but my experience of fault finding has been that you need to observe very closely - with a magnifying glass if necessary and plenty of light - on repeated slow movement. Sometimes there can be an audible clue as well!

Alan
Dave John
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Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Dave John »

I too end up making things several times to get them right. Its coming along nicely though, interesting build.
dalziel
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by dalziel »

Graham,
No more progress on the loco part but the tender has now been etched and loosely put together to check for errors, all of which will be down to me! This has been drawn from the original Neilson general arrangement drawing which shows a tool box and two tank fillers in the space at the back of the tender behind the coal space but no toolbox at footplate level at the back of the tank. There is however a photo of a rebuilt loco, three quarters back view, with a tender with a tool box at rear footplate level on p29 of the Scottish 4-4-0 book by T Middlemass so there were obviously tender changes, but from which class I don't know.

David Gallacher
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Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Gosh, David, that's lovely! You are obviously a proper model engineer!

I'm having a real tussle with the cylinder/ slidebars/ crosshead assemblies. I don't think I can make anything as fine as needed so I have bought the unit from the O2 Radial tank from Peter's Spares, but the positioning is really hard. The 125 class has a larger driving wheel than the O2 which gives the crosshead and piston rod a longer stroke. This demands particularly careful positioning so that it doesn't reach the back of the cylinder before the end of the stroke and there is no lee way as the piston rod would pull right out of the cylinder at the other end of the stroke. I've had a couple of breakages as the crosshead is fastened to the connecting rod by a plastic rivet which, once it comes out, won't go back. If I was more skillful, I would replace it with a 16BA nut and bolt. It's on hold at present until I get my nerve back!

I have also seen the three-quarter back view that suggests a box at the back of the tender with a sloping top, much like on the 179 class tender.

Best wishes, Graham
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Calling all loco buffs. If you have the Carriages book, there's a photo of Dundee bogie 127 in rebuilt form on p68. In the rebuild from the diagram in the loco drawings, the safety valves have moved to the top of the dome but at the smokebox sides there are pipes and at least one whistle on top behind the Westinghouses pump. Has anyone a diagram what goes on there on similar engines? Are there two whistles or one? Are they on the end of the vertical pipes or are the pipes about something else? What happens when the vertical pipe going up the side of the smokebox joins the pipe going in through the cab front? Where does the Westinghouse pump join the one on that side? Any help, please?

It's a small world, I met another member this morning at the small church at which I was a visiting preacher! I told him how much kindness I had received from you all.

Thanks in anticipation, Graham
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Hi Graham, I'm by no means a loco expert, but are you meaning the firebox when you say 'smokebox'? The pipes you refer to are for the injectors and the things leading back into the cab are the injector control rods. The whistle is located centrally on the firebox and takes it's steam from above the firebox, with the operating rod running back into the cab. There is no connection between the vertical pipes to the injectors and the whistle. All Drummond boilers were similar as far as I am aware.

As to the Westinghouse pump,the pipe to the control valve in the cab is the one with the loop in it running back from the top cylinder. As I say, I am no expert and this may be an oversimplification, so I stand to be corrected.

Jim W
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Thanks, Jim. Yes, firebox!
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by Graham Tipple »

Has anyone any idea of the form of the braking mechanism between the driving wheels? The drawing is not very helpful. There is obviously a hydraulic system pushing the two brakes outwards onto the tyres but from where do the brakes hang and are the hydraulics round? Is there a fulcrum somewhere low down? Help please? Happy Christmas and a Guid New Year! Graham
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: 125 class Dundee Bogie

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Is the arrangement similar to this on the rebuilt Class 30?
30 class #2 web.jpg
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I think there is a vertical cylinder which pushes down on the adjacent ends of the two levers at the bottom. They in turn push the lower ends of the shoes against the wheel - but I may well be wrong and I stand open to correction.

Jim W
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