Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Any aspect related to the structures and equipment on the Caledonian Railway Company.
dunalastairv
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by dunalastairv »

Hi Bill,

I've been to this location and there is no alteration to the site of the houses due to road alterations on the A74/B7076: indeed had they survived they would now have had their own quiet end of cul-de-sac. I think they were demolished because they became vacant as B.R. staffing changed, and being in need of modernisation, it was just easier to throw them away than be bothered with any further administration.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

Morning Bill,

No, the layby is the original A74, it was simply truncated. The new dual carriageway went straight through the viaduct and curved off much more gently. At one time, fairly recently, you could still see the old ribbed kerb stones and the drop kerb in front of the site of the cottages but I expect nature is fast encroaching, brambles were a big problem on last visit, we tried to find the underpass just to the north but couldnt get near. The site was very cramped and I always believed that the two story house was shoe-horned in to the available space which is why it didny face the line like all the others both CR and L&C, but maps show it was actually the first dwelling built here, around the time of the opening of the line. So the reason for the angle remains a mystery. The line is level with the chimneys on the cottages so its possible the CR felt no advantage in looking straight into an embankment.

The rear shot I have just acquired taken in 1963 shows one of the two cottage windows visible already boarded up, so it may be that they simply did not come up to standard and a decision was made to board up and then demolish when totally vacated, 1965/6, who knows?? But they were very substantially built and modernisation plans were drawn up but never implemented by BR. Private buyers could have though.

Regards Paul.
dunalastairv
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by dunalastairv »

Dear Paul,

I've just found a photograph of the cottages, good and sharp, but taken from the trackside further to the north, so showing them end on. This is E.R. Morton picture no. 1907, showing 'Wemyss Bay' tank, no. 55364 banking a goods on July 18th. 1951. Have you seen this? As well as the cottages, it shows the A74 as a single-track road, devoid of cars, and flanked by massive, double-post G.P.O. telegraph poles! I would have tried to upload it here but my skills don't go that far I'm afraid; however, I'm quite happy to send the picture to you for inspection if you would like. E-mail me directly for contact on [email protected] if you want to do this.

Kindest regards, Michael.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
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Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

Hello Michael,

Many thanks for thinking of my project and getting in touch. All suggestions are very weclome!

Are there two very happy non-railway faces peering out of the brake van just in front of the banker? If so, it sounds like the same shot I already have, very clear shot of the platelayers hut too. And there is another shot of the same train, hauled by a WD 2-10-0 90764 on David Heys site. Link is best I can do.....it will be in Scottish.

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/

ER Morten only took 2 photos at that location as he was on his way further north, and I suspect it was a shot pre-arranged with the two riders. I also suspect that one of the two is Wilf Cooper who took this shot linked below, also in 1951. His grandson David runs this site.

http://www.cooperline.com/wd_details.asp?id=632

Will be in touch PM.

Regards Paul.
dunalastairv
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by dunalastairv »

Sadly, Paul, you're right! Two happy faces looking at the camera. I had hoped to find you something new!

Mike.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

LOL! Thanks for trying !! I do have a new slide on the way though, from Africa of all places. Every shot adds another detail somewhere, and this is fairly close up and straight on. Canny wait.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
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Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

jimwatt2mm wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 6:11 pm
WCML55.68 wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 3:43 pm Nobody yet has answered the question....why are the chimney pots arranged 1.3.3.4.1 ?? 🤪🤪
I would guess that it is because of the arrangement of the rooms with fireplaces. The gable ends have one fireplace, the two right hand houses each have two rooms with fireplaces adjoining the party wall and the other two party walls have two rooms on one side and one room on the other. This would suggest that the three left hand houses were identical in layout with one room on the left side as you entered (living room/kitchen?) and two on the right (bedrooms?) and the right hand one was a mirror image of this. It may even have been that you entered straight into the living room with the bedrooms off that. Floor plans (if they exist) would confirm this.

Jim W
Hi Jim,

Theres one thing Im still curious about although of no consequence to the model. Each cottage has a single vented pot at one side and two octagonal ones at the other. The single stacks were the main room and kitchen fireplaces but why vented? To aid drafting maybe but why? Any ideas??

Thanks Paul.
JimG
Posts: 280
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Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by JimG »

WCML55.68 wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:22 am Theres one thing Im still curious about although of no consequence to the model. Each cottage has a single vented pot at one side and two octagonal ones at the other. The single stacks were the main room and kitchen fireplaces but why vented? To aid drafting maybe but why? Any ideas??
I can remember on very occasional days, with winds from a certain quarter, that our lums would blow back down with smoke everywhere inside the room. It could be that that was a regular occurence at the cottages and venting the chimneys of the fires which were regularly used would be necessary.

JimG.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

JimG wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:10 am
WCML55.68 wrote: Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:22 am Theres one thing Im still curious about although of no consequence to the model. Each cottage has a single vented pot at one side and two octagonal ones at the other. The single stacks were the main room and kitchen fireplaces but why vented? To aid drafting maybe but why? Any ideas??
I can remember on very occasional days, with winds from a certain quarter, that our lums would blow back down with smoke everywhere inside the room. It could be that that was a regular occurence at the cottages and venting the chimneys of the fires which were regularly used would be necessary.

JimG.
Morning Jim,

That certainly sounds feasible, although I would have thought that if a problem, all the pots would be vented. The two normal ones are bedrooms so equally necessary. I canny see it being cost either, the Caley didnt spare where buildings were concerned and these were no exception.

One things for sure, the weather at Beattock bank was nearly always inclement, wind and rain.!!

Regards Paul.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

Aaaaarrrgggghhhhhhhh..........

Ive just acquired an absolutely cracking broadside shot of a Fairburn tank banking a parcels train immediately behind the Harthope cottages. From South Africa of all places. Theres a terrific amount of info, both new and in confirmation, within this slide and being in colour...................now you may remember a post of mine a while ago regarding the colour of the paintwork, windows and doors. Being modelled in BR days led me to one Peter Smith, LMS buildings expert, and we concluded from what sparse info we had that the cottages still retained their LMS paintwork, cream windows, LMS brown bargeboards and doorframes, and LMS green doors, faded to blue as is wont.

I'm not going to reproduce the slide just yet, but a small section, the middens beside the cottages, is posted below. Just confirmation of the colours of the doors...NOT"!!!!

I dont think I'm allowed to reproduce the exact words used. 🤪

Paul.


97 MIDDENS.jpg
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Last edited by WCML55.68 on Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ian Smeeton
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by Ian Smeeton »

A tantalising glimpse of the cottages on this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kxiN5gBKrQ

at about 5:40

Regards

Ian
dunalastairv
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by dunalastairv »

I'm fascinated by the different colours on the four doors of the middens: are we to assume each cottage had a different colour to ensure the tenants knew which was theirs? And did these different colours apply to the doors of each cottage as well? You would never have guessed about polychromatic midden doors without a colour slide!
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

Ian Smeeton wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:49 pm A tantalising glimpse of the cottages on this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kxiN5gBKrQ

at about 5:40

Regards

Ian
Hello Ian,

Thanks for the link, a new one to me. I wonder if its available on DVD? But fancy cutting the film off there! Maybe its been edited, research needed!

Many thanks Paul.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

dunalastairv wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:22 pm I'm fascinated by the different colours on the four doors of the middens: are we to assume each cottage had a different colour to ensure the tenants knew which was theirs? And did these different colours apply to the doors of each cottage as well? You would never have guessed about polychromatic midden doors without a colour slide!
Morning,

There is a similar colour shot on ColourRail, which is well worth the download fee, its a bit murky in that corner but does hint also at the different coloured midden doors. It also clearly shows the house numbers on cottage doors, and also a possible colour differential which I suspect is either excessive fading in some cases or possibly a combo of ScR blue and faded LMS green. So a complete mystery. Close scrutiny of the midden doors shot reveals a mark on the blue door in the right place which might suggest a number?? But I expect that the explanation is more than likely some doors have really faded or been repainted and possibly a new door on the left.

Regards Paul.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

Evening all,

Attached is a scan plus a detail of an original Trevor Owen, TB Owen slide.
It has a handwritten reference ANH21 and the Kodak process date is Apr 67.
TBO is a name which many will be familiar with, he was a very prolific and widely travelled photographer.

The slide depicts the Harthope cottages during the sad process of demolition and a Britannia, now identified as 70032, withdrawn 30/09/67, on a rake of 8 mixed mainly BR Mk1s maroons and blue/greys, the third vehicle appears to be a Kitchen Car and the 4th a solitary Mk2. Its a foul day, heavy rain creating the spray from the cars and windy too judging by the low hanging exhaust being blown behind the train, the Britannia would have been working hard. Theres a few faces at windows towards the front of the train although this would be normal on anything at this very late stage for steam in Scotland but all research to trace the working, either service or special train, have failed.

Can anyone help??

All research to confirm a date has also drawn a blank. Those in the know say that his collection has been split up and that no diaries are known to exist. TBO apparently had a strange and unique code for reference numbers and only put full details on slides which he considered were the best. The rest just had the number of the film. ANH was the reference number for the particular film and 21 being the 21st shot although process records this as 22. Maybe a wasted slide?? He was also known for quick despatch to Kodak for processing and one dealer tells me that his slides of specials usually correspond datewise, date of tour and processing. So its a fair assumption that the date of Apr 67 for the cottages demise is fairly accurate. Much later than originally thought but as further photographic evidence comes to light, so the date keeps getting pushed back. This has to be the last time .....

Again can anyone help??

More important is the CR interest. The gable end and internal walls appear to be the same width as the chimney stacks which makes them some 2'6" thick and also appear to have no cavity. Solid indeed. Also of interest is the colour of the top front external stone which was covered by the roof overhang etc and protected from weathering. The internal wall tops also appear to be the same colour which suggests they are sandstone too. Solid again.

This makes it all the more puzzling again as to why BR found no interest in selling off such solid built property.

Paul.
103 BRITANNIA 70032 HARTHOPE 04.67 TB OWEN (2).jpg
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103  BRITANNIA 70032 HARTHOPE 04.67 TB OWENsm.jpg
103 BRITANNIA 70032 HARTHOPE 04.67 TB OWENsm.jpg (69.26 KiB) Viewed 433 times
JimG
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by JimG »

WCML55.68 wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:26 pm More important is the CR interest. The gable end and internal walls appear to be the same width as the chimney stacks which makes them some 2'6" thick and also appear to have no cavity. Solid indeed. Also of interest is the colour of the top front external stone which was covered by the roof overhang etc and protected from weathering. The internal wall tops also appear to be the same colour which suggests they are sandstone too. Solid again.

This makes it all the more puzzling again as to why BR found no interest in selling off such solid built property.
Sorry I can't help with your query.

The traditional method of wall building was to have dressed stone on the outside and undressed stone on the inner side with rubble filling the gap in the middle. These walls were substantial - the walls on a mid-Victorian house I owned being about three foot thick. The internal plaster was on laths mounted on battens dooked to the inner stonework so providing a form of insulation.

In the 1960s it was very much out with the old and in with the new, so BR at the time would probably not have considered trying to sell some old cottages in a fairly remote location. At that time Glasgow were razing tenement properties across the city because they didn't come up to modern standards and many good buildings disappeared. It was only later in the late 60s/early 70s that people started modernising tenements and making excellent buildings out of them. I remember filming a tenement development in Springburn where the single ends were being taken out and the space shared between the adjoining flats to proved good internal bathrooms and WCs. The grey sandstone outsides were also sandblasted to get rid of years of grime and revealed the beautiful light colour of the original stone.

Jim.
WCML55.68
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat May 31, 2014 4:37 pm

Re: Caledonian Railway staff cottages, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 »

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the reply and info.

Yes they wouldnt use dressed sandstone for internal walls as its not seen but I must admit surprise at using sandstone at all for the internal walls. I would have thought brick would have been just as effective and cheaper too. Perhaps it depended on what was locally available and the cost although my impression of CR is that they certainly didnt skimp on buildings.

Aye youre probably right regarding the culture of the 60s, modern was the thing of the day, and demand for housing wouldnt be the issue it is today. I think wages and wealth may also have been a factor as the standard of living rose. Perhaps surprising how many old railway buildings have actually survived into private ownership.
It saddens me greatly to see parts of Glasgow as it is today, so many of the replacement buildings have totally changed the unique character of the city and suburbs, they could be anywhere. Progress I suppose. But its lovely to see the restored red and grey tenements still extant and now cherished and prized.

Paul.
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