Cattle docks

Any aspect related to the structures and equipment on the Caledonian Railway Company.
jimwatt2mm
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

My layout includes a long livestock dock (capacity of 8-9 wagons) serving an adjacent market, similar to the set up at Lanark, where the platform can still be seen as you approach the station. I understand that at such locations, rather than have fixed pens, movable hurdles were used to contain the livestock while they were being unloaded. If this is correct, what did these hurdles look like? I can't recall seeing a photo of a Caley cattle dock.

Jim W
Dave Lochrie
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by Dave Lochrie »

Hi Jim,
I have a large tinted generic drawing from a mid-1870's Lanarkshire Contract (probably Hamilton & Ferniegair) showing Cattle Dock details, and although I thought all drawings I hold are duplicated in the archive, I don't see this one so will need to pass it over on my next trip north. It's too big to scan, but I can roll it out and try to photograph it at the weekend.
The archives only seem to hold a drawing for the SCR Cattle Dock at Dunblane, but there are a number of drawings in the NLS Collection, but you can't define an online search by anything other than locations, and by own records are only searchable by RHP number which is even less useful.
Lanark Goods Yard.jpg
Lanark Goods Yard.jpg (136.37 KiB) Viewed 19281 times
The Lanark plan "suggests" a mixture of fixed (4.5) and moveable pens, and this seems the most common arrangement, the average branch terminus having 1-3 fixed pens, to the standard 6-sided plan.
Cattle Pens.jpg
Cattle Pens.jpg (149.48 KiB) Viewed 19281 times
The enlargement of the Loch Awe picture shows a set of 3 freshly limed and ready for use. Pictures of hurdles are harder, though the idea was also in common use on most west coast piers, and they do appear on a number of photos of these. The close-up of Almondbank does show a pair of these on the loading bank, but this would only be sufficient for loading, holding any number would need considerably more hurdles.
Hurdles At Almondbank.jpg
Hurdles At Almondbank.jpg (144.14 KiB) Viewed 19281 times
Dave L
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Dave Lochrie wrote:
I have a large tinted generic drawing from a mid-1870's Lanarkshire Contract (probably Hamilton & Ferniegair) showing Cattle Dock details, and although I thought all drawings I hold are duplicated in the archive, I don't see this one so will need to pass it over on my next trip north. It's too big to scan, but I can roll it out and try to photograph it at the weekend.

Dave L
Thanks, Dave. Looks like a mixture would be appropriate for my set up, probably 4½ pens like Lanark. A sketch with some basic dimensions for the pens would give me enough to go on along with the photo of Loch Awe. The hurdles look like a candidate for an etch! :)

Jim W
dumb buffer
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by dumb buffer »

The picture of Loch Awe is intriguing for a number of reasons.
Firstly, the pipes on the loading bank and in the wagon might suggest that the construction of the hotel is under way.
Secondly there seem to be three solid buffered wagons in the dock. I understood that the use of these wagons over the C & O was banned. Finally, three cattle pens suggests an expectation of a reasonable level of livestock traffic. Dalmally, a much more significant place, which has (now) a cattle mart, seems to have no pens. I would expect places with a mart or a slaughterhouse to be well equipped, but I can't see where the cattle would come from or go to at Loch Awe. Sheep, perhaps?

Allan F
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

dumb buffer wrote:The picture of Loch Awe is intriguing for a number of reasons.
Firstly, the pipes on the loading bank and in the wagon might suggest that the construction of the hotel is under way.
Secondly there seem to be three solid buffered wagons in the dock. I understood that the use of these wagons over the C & O was banned. Finally, three cattle pens suggests an expectation of a reasonable level of livestock traffic. Dalmally, a much more significant place, which has (now) a cattle mart, seems to have no pens. I would expect places with a mart or a slaughterhouse to be well equipped, but I can't see where the cattle would come from or go to at Loch Awe. Sheep, perhaps?

Allan F
Solid buffer wagons were banned from the section of the C&O west of Crianlarich in the 1915 WTT Appendix (page 72) This page was part of the "instructions supplementary to those contained in the Book of Rules and Regulations" which suggests that it was an innovation. The hotel was built long before that, but I'm not sure when. The annual traffic stats for 1913 (the only ones I have for the line) show 23 livestock wagons out and 25 in. Dalmally had 10 times that amount of traffic.

Best

Mike
Jim Summers
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by Jim Summers »

I came across this link to a charming Cattle Dock scene at Peebles by the ubiquitous George Washington Wilson, and I think it might be relevant,both for cattle docks, cattle wagons, and limewash. You have to select the bit of the picture you want, but the zoom will then reveal all.

It is picture 69 in the section on Peebles.

http://digitool2.abdn.ac.uk/view/action/singleViewer.

Jim S
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Jim Summers wrote:I came across this link to a charming Cattle Dock scene at Peebles by the ubiquitous George Washington Wilson, and I think it might be relevant,both for cattle docks, cattle wagons, and limewash. You have to select the bit of the picture you want, but the zoom will then reveal all.
Jim S
Thanks, Jim. the link didn't work for me (got one of those '404 ....' messages), however, googling George Washington Wilson I found the University of Aberdeen collection and found it there. David Lochrie had already sent me a scan of the same photo (has a whole row of 7T mineral wagons in it, some with no side doors!), along with a drawing of what he thinks is an NER cattle dock of similar appearance. Between the two I've made up a drawing, to suit my site, which I think isn't too far away.

Jim
Barry Rhys
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by Barry Rhys »

jimwatt2mm wrote:
Jim Summers wrote:I came across this link to a charming Cattle Dock scene at Peebles by the ubiquitous George Washington Wilson, and I think it might be relevant,both for cattle docks, cattle wagons, and limewash. You have to select the bit of the picture you want, but the zoom will then reveal all.
Jim S
Thanks, Jim. the link didn't work for me (got one of those '404 ....' messages), however, googling George Washington Wilson I found the University of Aberdeen collection and found it there.Jim
Hi Jim (both of you), just to save anyone having to go through the same route, the link for this particular picture is here - which actually takes a whole line of code, so I won't write it in full. Also, I have found the Zoom function sometimes doesn't know how to activate itself, so first try clicking the whole thumbnail picture (left) before using the Zoom function.

Don't just look at the cattle dock though. This picture has so much in it, including the goods shed and station train shed in the background, all in very fine detail. Indeed having looked through several of the GWW Peebles pictures I had to find out more - so I'll open another topic soon.

Meanwhile, just in case the above link does not work for whatever reason (eg. if their website admin changes it in the future - bearing in mind that we want our CRA Forum site to remain searchable), the University of Aberdeen's Photographic Archive Ref. No. of this picture is:
GB 0231 MS 3792/E4107

Neil
Half Welsh, 100% Yorkshireman
jasp
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jasp »

Here is a pic from Mark Tatlow's thread on Scalefourum in whichthe livestock pens may be of interest
Kyle_of_Lochalsh_2_Station_geograph-2194733.jpg
Kyle_of_Lochalsh_2_Station_geograph-2194733.jpg (130.98 KiB) Viewed 19037 times
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Following this earlier discussion, I designed etches for cattle pens to be built along the lines of the old Hornby Dublo engine shed, i.e. an etch for a single pen with another to extend that by one pen, a further 'extension' etch adding another pen, and so on. I've gone for three pens in all.

The parts for one pen laid out round a printed template. This was stuck to a piece of card and then holes drilled at each post so that the sections could be fitted in the holes to aid assembly. Once the pens were assembled, and removed from the jig and it was then used as a template to drill holes in the livestock landing for the pens.
cattle pen parts web.jpg
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The single pen assembled.
single cattle pen web.jpg
single cattle pen web.jpg (92 KiB) Viewed 17073 times
The three pens assembled on the jig.
3 cattle pens #1 web.jpg
3 cattle pens #1 web.jpg (57.58 KiB) Viewed 17073 times
Jim W
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

The cattle pens in situ prior to painting. There will be a sleeper fence between them and the road in the foreground of the photo and across the road, on the backscene and behind a wall, will be the market.
3 cattle pens #2 web.jpg
3 cattle pens #2 web.jpg (83.23 KiB) Viewed 17033 times
Only a couple of 'foreign' cattle trucks (MR & GCR) available at the moment, but two CR 1870 ones currently under construction while the white paint on the pens dries.

Jim W
Steve Parsons
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by Steve Parsons »

Its got to be said Jim that's extremely impressive, I guess that etch will only be in 2mm scale?
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Steve Parsons wrote:Its got to be said Jim that's extremely impressive, I guess that etch will only be in 2mm scale?
Thanks, Steve. Yes it's in 2MM scale. If I was to make it available there are several things I would change on it to make it easier to build, but that's one of the reasons for doing trial etches. I don't know how easy it would be to 'scale it up'. There are a lot of etched kits which ave been 'scaled down' to 2MM, among them some of John Boyle's, and they work OK provided the metal thickness is reduced proportionately. I don't know how it would work the other way.

Jim W
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

The pens are now painted and fixed on the landing, but the latter needs some limewash splashed about! In front are two 1870 cattle trucks, as yet unpainted, from another of my etches. the left one is in original condition while the right one has the ends boarded in.
3 cattle pens #3 web.jpg
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3 cattle pens #4 web.jpg
3 cattle pens #4 web.jpg (66.48 KiB) Viewed 16958 times
Designing the ends was an interesting exercise as not only do the stanchions taper to the top, but the central cross member tapers to either side.

Jim W
Graham Tipple
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by Graham Tipple »

In rather belated response to dumbuffer, Dalmally had cattle pens just behind the signal box and of the same design as the frets shown further down the thread. I have photos from 1967. Graham
David Blevins
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by David Blevins »

Have we ever given any consideration to producing the Caledonian Railway Cattle Dock in 4mm scale?
It was mentioned some time ago after Jim Watt produced a Model in 2mm scale.
I was researching on the Forum under Cattle Pens, and discovered this article which is of great value to my plans to construct a Cattle Dock/Pen for Airdrie Station.
Is there a possibility in producing a Kit for a Cattle Pen as well as Wagons.

David Blevins.
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

As I said in my post earlier (4 above) I'm not sure how well my etch artwork would 'scale up' and, as I said then, there are a few things I would change. However, I doubt I can remember what all these were as it's now 4 years since I built it! :roll:

I would be quite happy to share the basic drawing I produced first (and the NER one I worked from) with anyone who wanted to produce such a kit.

Jim W
Jim Summers
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by Jim Summers »

The Association is contemplating re-issuing an updated etch of useful Caledonian things (in 4mm scale). At the moment, we have a list of suggested items, which needs a bit more work before publishing for comments. Jim's 2mm model of cattle pens is delightful, as we expect, but Jim rightly warns that it might not translate easily into 4mm. It would of course greatly increased the size and cost of the envisaged etch.

Views welcome of course, but as Jim has kindly offered to make his drawing available, I wonder if he might be persuaded to offer to the editor of The True Line?
Modellers could then adapt it to 4mm, 7mm or whatever, and use Plastikard, wood or whatever, with the added merit of being able to build as much or as little as their station needs.
JimS
John Duffy
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by John Duffy »

The drawing would certainly be welcome.

John
tony brenchley
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by tony brenchley »

Thanks for the prompt Jim

I am not sure if an etch would work in 4mm scale to obtain the correct thickness for the wooden posts and planks. This looks to be ideal for a set of parts cast in resin. If we can sell 30 or more sets that should cover the cost of mould making. Most people will want at least 2 sets.

How many takers do we have and is anybody willing to make suitable patterns based on the work that Jim Watt has already done in 2mm scale?

Tony B
David Blevins
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by David Blevins »

I will put my name down for 2 sets of Cattle Dock.
It only needs a few others to come forward and a small article in The True Line of our intentions, and we could pull it off!

David Blevins.
jasp
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jasp »

I am certainly happy to look at making patterns for resin casting.
Jim W, would you be able to send me a copy of your drawings?
Thanks
Jim P
jasp
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jasp »

I am certainly happy to look at making patterns for resin casting.
Jim W, would you be able to send me a copy of your drawings?
Thanks
Jim P
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Drawings sent to Jim P by email.

Jim W
Coronach
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Re: Cattle docks

Post by Coronach »

Can I add my own expression of interest in a 4mm pair too, please.
Once I’ve flitted home I will have time to use them at last!

Davy.
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