Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Any aspect related to the structures and equipment on the Caledonian Railway Company.
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Bill_Gensheet
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:34 pm

Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by Bill_Gensheet » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:32 pm

In the image below the train appears to be running wrong line on the down loop as a second track is visible in foreground.
The visible track would surely be the up loop as there was no headshunt here, and point rodding is visible heading off left for the loop points.

http://www.robertdarlaston.co.uk/Railwa ... age040.jpg

A switch out function is not mentioned on the oban-line website page for Glenoglehead
http://oban-line.info/gd1/gd1.html

Thoughts ?
Also an ID of the coach, could it be the extra Friday Crianlarich school coach heading back ?

regards

Bill

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by jimwatt2mm » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:43 pm

I'm not familiar with the track layout, but could it be that the down line was a straighter run than going on the up loop and was therefore preferred if there was no requirement to cross an up train?

Jim W

John Lindsay
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by John Lindsay » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:25 pm

A quick look at the 1950 signal diagram here: http://www.oban-line.info/gd1/gd1.html shows no signals for down movements on the up loop, so it seems unlikely that it could be switched out or that routine use of the up loop in the down direction would be allowed.

Was it changed before closure?

Cheers

John

Bill_Gensheet
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by Bill_Gensheet » Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:01 pm

You would need a junction signal if you were to have a choice of running main or loop, eg as Bridge of Orchy or Aviemore had. A pure switch out would not require an extra signal, for example St Brides :
http://www.oban-line.info/sb1/sb1.html

This image after closure still shows the up home as a single arm:
https://topticl.zenfolio.com/p643643097/ha23acab2
A near matching image from last month:
http://www.gensheet.co.uk/photo8/GlenOglehead1.jpg


For completeness, the southern / 'east' end of the loop after closure:
https://topticl.zenfolio.com/p643643097 ... #ha23acc52
This confirms the loop length as being well south / east of the initial image

The base of the down home signal is still there:
http://www.gensheet.co.uk/temp/L1060477.JPG

Other images from a visit last month
http://www.gensheet.co.uk/temp/L1060478.JPG - double track width in cutting looking north

http://www.gensheet.co.uk/temp/L1060479.JPG - approximately from signal box site

http://www.gensheet.co.uk/temp/L1060481.JPG - signal box(!) stood in this dip

http://www.gensheet.co.uk/temp/L1060482.JPG - goods building

http://www.gensheet.co.uk/temp/L1060483.JPG - mid loop looking south

http://www.gensheet.co.uk/temp/L1060484.JPG - stump of down starting

http://www.gensheet.co.uk/temp/L1060485.JPG - looking north from end of loop. Stump of up home stump is out of picture in the ditch to the right.


Bill

Bill_Gensheet
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by Bill_Gensheet » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:13 am

Going through the rest of the Oban-line site, it records switching out facilities being added to all the simple crossings (St Brides, Glenorchy, Awe Crossing and Glencruitten) in the winter of 1921-22.

Bill

John Paton
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by John Paton » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:09 pm

I have a print-out of a thread on The Signal Box forum (which seems now to be defunct) from 2009 under the title "Killin branch", which amongst other interesting matters discusses how passenger trains overtook freights on the C&O. Apparently unlike the West Highland, on the C&O freights were 'looped' onto the opposite track to that about to be occupied by the passenger train by passing through the station then reversing back onto the opposite line. Thereafter it resumed its journey by reversing backwards out the loop then passing through the station again on the correct line. The manoeuvre was always therefore controlled by fixed signals. Following this theory, the freight could have reversed onto the down line to let an up passenger train pass it.

Regarding the carriage, in the 1950s the Callander to Crianlarich scholars carriage was returned from Crianlarich to Killin Junction by the morning Oban to Stirling Central Yard freight. It would not therefore need to go to Glenoglehead. I see that the coach is a composite. In the 1950s the Killin branch was Third then Second class only so I doubt that it is related to that line. Being non-vestibuled, I suspect that it is a branch carriage. It may be from the Ballachulish branch returning to Glasgow on a freight train for maintenance or withdrawal.

John

John Paton
Posts: 148
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Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by John Paton » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:29 pm

I have just found my copy of the 1961 "Hours of Opening of Signal Boxes". Glenoglehead's opening hours are 6.10am to 8.50pm Mon-Sat, which judging by the similar opening hours of boxes such as Killin Junction and Crianlarich Junction, indicates that it was not switched out in normal circumstances. Boxes such as Drumvaich, Glenlochy, Awe and Glencruitten have much shorter hours.

Bill_Gensheet
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by Bill_Gensheet » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:42 pm

John Paton wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:09 pm
I have a print-out of a thread on The Signal Box forum (which seems now to be defunct) from 2009 under the title "Killin branch", which amongst other interesting matters discusses how passenger trains overtook freights on the C&O. Apparently unlike the West Highland, on the C&O freights were 'looped' onto the opposite track to that about to be occupied by the passenger train by passing through the station then reversing back onto the opposite line. Thereafter it resumed its journey by reversing backwards out the loop then passing through the station again on the correct line. The manoeuvre was always therefore controlled by fixed signals. Following this theory, the freight could have reversed onto the down line to let an up passenger train pass it.
John
Thanks John,
Most likely then the train was stationary and the rear van backed to the down starter, both of which seem to fit the image, eg blowing off and little smoke at a summit and general positioning.

For this manoeuvre, do you have any thoughts on how would the tablet/token have been dealt with ?
Would it need to be taken out and handed over to the freight for the shunt, then collected, cancelled, and reissued for the passenger ? Would it be acceptable to take it out and simply keep it ready for the overtaking train ?

regards
Bill

John Paton
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by John Paton » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:51 pm

Hi Bill,

I am no signalling expert, but assume that the Glenoglehead signaller could 'block-back' with Balquidder to allow the freight to enter the section in order to reverse onto the down line, thereby avoiding the need to issue a Glenoglehead - Balquhidder tablet for the manoeuvre. Obviously 'blocking back' could not be accepted by Balquhidder if a down train was in the section, but this could not be the case if the freight was allowing an up train to overtake.

John

John Lindsay
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by John Lindsay » Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:09 pm

Generally, signalling regulations allow for shunting into single line sections following the departure of a train into that section without gaining authority from the signalman at the other end. On the other hand, if the section is clear, then taking a token out or blocking back is required. The only advantage of the latter is it allows for shunting into section at both ends simultaneously.
I haven't got a copy of the relevant BR signalling regs, so can't confirm that this is what applied at the time of the photo.

cheers

John

Loch Awe
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:26 pm

Re: Could Glenoglehead crossing box be switched out ?

Post by Loch Awe » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:34 pm

Bill,

I have a BR signalling plan for Glenoglehead from the 1950's you might like to see, Its too large to post but if you send me your email I'll send on.

kind regards,

Robert

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