Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Any aspect related to the structures and equipment on the Caledonian Railway Company.
WCML55.68
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Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:54 pm

Good afternoon everyone,
Thank goodness the serious modelling season is with us again. 🤪

Although there is still some work left to do on the block of four staff cottages - subject of previous post, and the block of two staff cottages is going to be completely replaced, warping, Ive been itching to get started on the 2-storey house. So Wednesday had a good think about construction and materials to be used. Two long evenings and most of today, Saturday, we now have all the parts marked and cut to form the shell. Main body 80th plasticard and extensions 60th so like a proverbial battleship. Id been expecting this to be more complicated than the block of four, but so far so good. The hardest part will be the V-shaped bay windows at front and the peculiar roof wraparound over the front door and stairwell. Assembly of these bits, then quoin stones and stone cladding to come.

Ive never been able to determine the official name for these 2-storey properties, they were dotted along parts of the CR section of the WCML, I think mainly the southern part and Harthope is the most northerly one uncovered so far, were there any others elsewhere and any not on the WCML?? The Lancaster & Carlisle had some very similar ones too, although the dimensions and materials used differ slightly, as they do with the CR ones, but the CR ones were far superior as regards style and quality of build and materials used etc. Some were isolated houses and others in a group like Harthope and there was one near Kingmoor Yard. Linemans house seems to be the most appropriate name. Anyone help?

The first photo shows the taped together model in roughly the position in relation to the Harthope cottages, second just taped for the shot, and third all the main bits.

P.

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dumb buffer
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Re: Caledonian Railway Linemans House, Harthope

Post by dumb buffer » Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:13 pm

Your completed cottage is well realised. I particularly liked the finish of the stonework, which well achieves that slightly softened reddish look of the red sandstone.
You know that we acquired a significant number of original drawings of various minor buildings along the route. These were acquired from an Irish auction and they originally included a good number of Lancaster and Carlisle drawings, which we handed over to the LNWR people. We reckoned that some of these drawings came from the hand of Joseph Locke himself.

Allan F

Jim Summers
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Re: Caledonian Railway Linemans House, Harthope

Post by Jim Summers » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:18 am

I am impressed too.
Unfortunately I cannot help with a description of the lineside houses. The Directors seem to have referred to them as 'dwelling houses' or 'accommodation'.
An expression such as 'lineman's house' implies a signal and telegraph lineman, and such staff would be the least likely to need accommodation on the spot. P.way and signalmen etc would require dwelling houses close to the workplace (a benefit for the company being that they could easily be called out). I'd suggest you use the expression 'staff accommodation', which is a bit modern, but handy.
Incidentally, the German railways built large estates and ran, in effect, a Building Society.

Jim

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Linemans House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:33 am

Thanks Allan, the red sandstone colour has been achieved by mixing various Model Color wargaming paints. Im still not totally happy with it as it looks very wishy-washy under certain light, it might be better once weathered although that has partly happened already just through handling.
No I didnt know about the drawings acquisition, is there a list?
As regards the Linemans house, theres a couple extant at Kirkpatrick Fleming but they are different style and materials and slightly different measurements to the one extant at Auchencastlle. Im pretty confident that the latter was the same as Harthope, now demolished, and the model under construction is based on that. I suspect that the materials used were the same as the 1848 viaduct and piers and have been to the site and retrieved some samples of stone to aid the colour match. They are strewn all over the ground under the present viaduct although some may be from the 1875 replacement so care is needed! The quoinstones are red/orange sandstone and the main walls and piers are grey, but I dont know exactly what this is. On the remains of the 1848 buttress, there are places where the grey seems to have washed off revealing red sandstone and even discoloured the red sandstone underneath. Note the extremely long qoinstones. I wouldnt have thought that they would go to that amount of trouble and given the time since built it would all have washed off. But whatever, grey with red quoins will be the order of the model. The real thing must have looked fabulous in its heyday. No known photos as yet.
As regards the cottages, Ive only found a single block in Beattock village itself but CR built, I think a block of 5 converted to 3 dwellings, so all research has been based on photos, mainly snippets behind a loco portrait. Theres quite a few of those but very few full shots of any blocks. But every shot adds a piece of jigsaw. What is definite is that there are a tremendous number of variations between these cottages as regards style and size. Luckily there are a few distance shots of the whole scene at Harthope so the models are based on research as a whole.

This leads me to another post which I will submit later today.

P.


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WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Linemans House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:46 am

Jim Summers wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:18 am
I am impressed too.
Unfortunately I cannot help with a description of the lineside houses. The Directors seem to have referred to them as 'dwelling houses' or 'accommodation'.
An expression such as 'lineman's house' implies a signal and telegraph lineman, and such staff would be the least likely to need accommodation on the spot. P.way and signalmen etc would require dwelling houses close to the workplace (a benefit for the company being that they could easily be called out). I'd suggest you use the expression 'staff accommodation', which is a bit modern, but handy.
Incidentally, the German railways built large estates and ran, in effect, a Building Society.

Jim
Thanks for that Jim, I have adjusted the subject to dwelling house, I dont want to create a misnomer. The L&C had several where there was no station, and Auchencastle and Harthope I think fall into that category too, theres 2 at Kirkpatrick Fleming, one for sale!! so they cannot be specific stationmaster houses which leads me to think track or signalling. Maybe lineman is the wrong description.

Thanks, P.

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:53 am

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Auchencastle, was a bit awkward to measure!

dumb buffer
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by dumb buffer » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:05 pm

CRA6/2/9 is the reference, but the drawings are not individually listed. However when we originally got them I did a listing which I've managed to find, and I attach here
CRA6-2-9 IRISH AUCTION.xlsx
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I don't think this list is in the archive, and Jim Summers, if you're listening(!) may like to incorporate it in the archive.
I note that in fact only three cottages are drawn. I seem to recall that they were all single storey, and perhaps not as big as those you have built.
There is a fascination in thinking of the possibility of Joseph Locke himself examining, and perhaps drawing these plans nearly 180 years ago.
I left them folded in plastic envelopes -- I didn't want to cause further damage by trying to flatten them.

Regards

Allan F

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:45 pm

Evening Allan,

Many thanks for the link, it all sounds very interesting. Are the plastic envelopes acid free? Have the plans been scanned at all? Would be fascinated to see what you have, especially the Occupation underbridge, there was one north of the cottages and Coatsgate will be the Harthope ones. :D . I think if it is possible at all, scanning should be done ASAP to prevent loss through deterioration. Possibly high resolution photos? I think Joseph Locke was responsible for the L&C as well, hence the similar dwelling houses. Theres also a block of cottages in similar style near Gretna station on the GSWR but although similar style, are different dimensions.

This is the block of cottages in Beattock village, taken from Streetview. Gable and not hipped ends, distorted through the camera. It appears they were built as a block of 5 quite tiny dwellings and converted to a block of 3. Note that the quoin stones are noticeably proud of the stone walls. There were three blocks facing the goods yard at the station, one similar to these, one similar to those at Harthope and a third of different design yet again. Im pretty sure the Harthopes had the proud quoin stones so thats been represented on the model. The 2-storey dwelling house has totally flush machined quoin stones so these will be applied to the basic shell and the stone cladding cut to fit the gaps. That WILL be great fun.

P.
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Jim Summers
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by Jim Summers » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:35 pm

Just to re-assure Allan and anyone else that a) I was listening, and b) that list has been in our official lists for some time.
The identifications, incidentally, were by the late Richard Chown, a very experienced BR civil engineer with amazing knowledge of locations on railways in Scotland and farther flung thereof.

Jim

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sat Dec 21, 2019 1:27 pm

Good afternoon all,

Well, the basic shell of the CR dwelling house is virtually complete now, bar the pointy bay windows at the front. Still pondering over the MO on these. 24 days of virtual full-time work and over 500 applied quoin stones & sills so far! The window surroundss for the wee toilet block are already painted and frames installed,too small to complete after assembly. Cutting matt is warped, not the house!

Wishng everyone a Merry Christmas and hope you can fit some modelling in.

All the best Paul.


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Jim Summers
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by Jim Summers » Sat Dec 21, 2019 2:11 pm

Looking worth all the effort, Paul.

Good wishes for the season and the year to come,

Jim

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:51 pm

Thanks Jim, all the best to you too.

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:11 pm

A wee progress update. All the stone parts for inset into the quoin stones have now been fashioned along with under-roof, all the roof parts and am on with the windows and doors at present. A shot of the Airfix kit and a shot to give an impression of how it will look. All the parts are rested in so it looks as if theres quite a few gaps and windows are crooked, the stone infill is not flush. Not sure whether to paint first and assemble after, or Mekpak first and paint after. One thing Ive gone for, is the much higher coped gables on the left. As per prototype, it will make a talking point at exhibition, as lomg as I take photographic proof!







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WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:43 pm

THE DREADED BAY WINDOWS!

Afternoon all,

I knew those pointy bay windows were going to be difficult as far as uniformity and sharpness of the 45° angle recessed window surrounds and the flat front face to the angle of the point reaching up to the almost Gothic but very graceful overhangs at the roof level, and indeed those overhangs themselves. I left the bays to last which I suppose was a bit silly as all the previous work could have gone to waste, but I suppose this put more pressure on to get them right when their turn came. Turns out to be the most difficult piece of scrathbuilding Ive ever attempted and has taken as long to get them to this stage as the rest of the building! Hence the quiet!

The originals were very difficult to measure accurately, especially the plan in relation to the angle at the main body of the house and the angle of the pointy bit at the very front which was only available at the very top just under the roof! ( the proud bases are similarly flat faced and still to be trimmed) I always suspected that the latter would be a right angle but when the measurements taken on the day were transferred to paper, came out at a slightly wider angle. But during the dry runs, things suggested they were indeed a right angle and thats what we havel. Its easy enough to measure the flat wall and all the openings, but angles, not so easy. A large adjustable graduated angle required. The only way to get that angle with my knowledge and equipment on that day was to measure the total length of the house, the walls either side of and between the bays, and then measure to the best of ability the distance the bays jutted out which is where I suspect the blame lies.

Loooong story but several dry runs have been undertaken to discover any shortfalls and mistakes and develop an MO, methods and materials. Warping was the biggest problem and cutting the Evergreen strip quoinstones to 45° to achieve uniformity and crispness.
A jig was made to combat each.

A first view of the front of the Dwelling House with bays attached. RH still to be completed and minor filling and finishing along with stone infill to apply to both. Fairly plain sailing from here methinks. 🤪

P.
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dunalastairv
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by dunalastairv » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:39 pm

Goodness - and I have enough trouble trying to restore parts of the real thing, let alone working to these modellers' tolerances! Beautiful job and I do look forward to seeing the completed structure.

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:40 pm

LOL, you should see me in full warcry. Twin Angelpoises, a set of Loupes and a bench that I can bring up to a couple of inches from the eyes! Oh and some Optrex.

Jim Summers
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by Jim Summers » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:11 am

All so worthwhile, though.

JImS

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:21 am

Thanks Jim, hopefully not long before some painting which will again change the appearance dramatically. Got the bay window roofs to do now, no measurements and its extremely difficult working with multiple angles. Trial and error with some card first. Photos are unreliable as not being perfectly square and level with the subject alters perspective and measurements too. And the upper bay windows will have to be installed before final assembly, no access after that. All part of the fun. P.

dumb buffer
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by dumb buffer » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:08 am

I do admire the precision of your work here; it will be a most eye catching structure when finished. The complex wee angles around the windows are well caught --- these little things are individually unnoticeable, but make such a difference to the visual character of the building. My brain is tying itself in knots trying to work out how the roofs of the bay windows will be made. Are the quoin stones individually measured, made, and laid, or is the whole column one strip?

Well done!

Allan F

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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:21 pm

Afternoon Allan,

Thanks for the encouragement. All much appreciated. Yes the original 1848 Harthope Viaduct and dwellings must have looked fabulous in their day as per posted photos on this thread, I am so surprised and impressed by the robust construction and attention to ornate detail of the real CR structures. So hopefully will capture some of that. Brain tied in knots! Perfect description of what happened to me regarding the the actual bay windows, and now with the bay roofs too. Trial error and dry run and trim to fit. But its surprising given a lot of thought and some trial runs how a method slowly develops, and then a final trial run brings success. Once MO is decided upon the rest is fairly easy. Photos cannot be relied upon for measurements of the roofs, but I do spend a lot of time with a dry run comparing it to photos from all angles to see if it looks right. Was also BTIK ( I think we have a new entry for the Urban Dictionary!) trying to work out a jig for the quoinstone 45°angle cuts, not a flat sheet but thin strip several mm thick, turned out to be quite simple. Similarly another jig to hold both sides of a bay window, both flat and 90° square, whilst Mekpak was applied and dried. Again quite simple and the answer was already in front of me. You might well have heard the lightbulb moment! Each quoinstone is cut individually from various appropriate sizes of Evergreen strip, expensive but accurate, and trimmed to represent mortar joints and once applied, the excess is filed off at the other side. There must be approaching 1000 now, I will count them! The jig enabled them to be produced fairly quickly and fairly accurately in around 30 seconds each and was a great boost. They are then graded to match together, they do differ a touch and occasionally a complete reject.


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I am just wondering whether an article Working with Plasticard might be of interest to True Line describing some of the techniques developed and pitfalls avoided and tools used. It is so versatile, easily worked with, has many attributes and a couple of pitfalls.

Regards Paul.

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:42 pm

This is one of the two similar houses at Ecclefechan. Slightly different materials, measurements and appearance to both on Beattock and much modified now, but gives a good impression. Those little details certainly add character and grace.
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dumb buffer
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by dumb buffer » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:18 pm

I find it useful to think how the original builders worked --- they didn't have fancy equipment, and much of their work must have been "cut to fit"

I think an article on working with plasticard --- indeed on building the houses --- would be a great asset to TTL The last really profound article on that sort of thing that I remember was to do with the building of Heckmondwike by the North London Group nearly 50 years ago(!)

Incidentally I note one of the coping slabs has fallen off the right hand bay window roof; that's going to be interesting getting up there to replace it!

Slainte

Allan F

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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:13 am

Morning Allan,

Thanks for the tip.

Have given this much thought and I have worked on the roofs this weekend. Ive formed a cross from sheet plasticard, probably exactly as the the real thing would have been built but using wooden beams though! The horizontal part being an upwards extension of the main wall of the house as those beams would rest on that wall, apex height in the centre and dropping to gutter level at both sides, the vertical part being the actual apex and tapering to gutter level at the front point. A couple of dry runs to get the MO and measurements right and compare the results to photographs to see if it looks right as no measurements are available. I dont want to glue them to the top of the bays as this will greatly hinder installation of the windows when that time comes so they are affixed to the under roof, exactly the same as the rear ones. They cantilever out and it does look odd, but right decision. This week we will clad the crosses and then cut the roof slates ready for final assembly. Just like the real thing! That seems to ring a bell.

I suspected that the angle of the point at bay window front was 90°when Auchencastle was measured, and thats what the model now is. It would make sense from the stonemasons point of view in c1848 and I would suspect that the plans would be drawn up with ease of manufacture and tools of the day in mind. Also bear in mind that a lot of people couldnt even read or write at that time. Another thing which is now apparent is that the two roof panels forming the front of the bay are isosceles triangles which will make the construction that bit easier. Again trial and error to get things to fit but I cant help feeling like Im retracing steps from all those years ago and that the measurements are right.

Well spotted on the missing tile!! I hadnt noticed that, must be slipping. No pun, and same reason I couldnt measure up there!

And watch TTL !!

P.

WCML55.68
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by WCML55.68 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:27 am

Further to the post on the David Elvy Bankfoot Station Building thread, Ive been working on the roofs for the bay windows on the Dwelling House. Its not been easy, multiple angles and no measurements nor 90° level shots, the best is a cheeky screensave, Ben Elias video, so using the exact same angle and viewpoint compare method ..... seems to compare well but clearly shows that the chimney stack is a touch tall, not yet affixed and will be reduced accordingly at the base.
One peculiar thing, although Im sure this house is the same as that at Auchencastle, this extremely enlarged and enhanced Wilf Cooper shot seems to show that the sandstone around the upper windows is very much darker than that around the lower windows, and the quoinstones seem non existent. The chimney stack looks absolutely black so I suspect that this may be due to soot or perhaps some detail is lost in the enhancement.


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Buhar
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Re: Caledonian Railway Dwelling House, Harthope

Post by Buhar » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:34 pm

Very late to the party, Paul, but...

I've looked at the drawings in Thurso Street and if I recall correctly they were marked as Platelayers cottages. Examples remain at Kirkpatrick Fleming (not Ecclefechan) and at Coatsgate just north of Beattock. The drawings are too fragile to be scanned but the archive can do a photograph. I have a copy of the drawings for the single storey crossing keepers cottage and I suspect many of the measurements (window detail etc) are similar. Examples of this type of cottage are near Lockerbie and again Kirkpatrick Fleming.

Alan

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