Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

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Coronach
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by Coronach » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:12 pm

One of the most surprising RTR announcements this month is this.
I’m led to believe this was pretty much an off the shelf CS product and was also used by the Caley.
Does anyone know more about this unexpected release?

Davy.

lindsay_g
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by lindsay_g » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:18 pm

The standard Cowans Sheldon crane was used by a good few companies in particular the mark II with the "swan neck" jib. The Caley bought 2 15 ton cranes from CS but they were actually fore-runners to the standard crane (Mk I) by 7 years. Interestingly the Highland Railway followed the CR and bought one which was different again to both these versions. Whilst at first glance the CR and standard cranes might look identical or pretty similar there were numerous differences between them. The most glaring difference is the jib which was longer on the standard crane, had 3 apertures on the CR crane but 4 on the standard crane (top and bottom jib plates also had differing apertures), and curved nicely at the tip on the CR cranes rather than a less elegant angular tip. Other major differences were the sliding counter-balance beams which ran through the bunker/water tank unit to the rear of the crane and the retractable draw bars in both buffer beams - both unique to CR & HR.

So, if you are a purist, beware you will have a lot of alterations to make, especially if the Oxford model is the more popular MkII version where the jib is completely different. I've made a lot of changes to the D&S kit of the Mk I model but I lost heart somewhat when I realised a new jib would be required such are the scale of the differences. However, it makes into a lovely model so I'll have to get back into it one day. You'll also need to scratch build the distinctive 6 wheeled runner wagon. External W irons will be needed which were on the Society etch of a few years ago, albeit that the angle of the outer legs differed, but not available presently. However, the heavy buffers can be modelled by near-identical items available from Dave Frank's Lanarkshire Model Supplies.

Having said all of that, the Oxford Rail model could well be a welcomed addition to their range.

Lindsay

lindsay_g
Posts: 380
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by lindsay_g » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:20 am

Hello, me again,

I've just been on to the Oxford website. Seems they are producing 2 versions of the crane in 4 liveries. From what I take from the images (altho' I'm not going to check whether the liveries will match up with the models mentioned), they'll produce both swan neck and curved jib versions. So, at the least a new paint job is required (but what liveries did the CR cranes carry in CR days????). However, at just under £20 they seem to be an absolute snip as a possible starting point. Time will tell.

Website : https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/collect ... r76scs2001

Lindsay

Coronach
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by Coronach » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:16 am

Thanks for that detailed reply, Lindsay.
Certainly their appears to be some potential in the projected new model.

Davy.

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 454
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:00 am

Lindsay, my view on crane livery is that it was purple lake because the lettering was the shaded passenger style - see caption in wagon book p.275

Best

Mike

lindsay_g
Posts: 380
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by lindsay_g » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:18 am

Hi Mike,

I'd agree and go with your assumption in the days when the cranes had the shaded lettering and were also lined. However, that was a later livery for the cranes (no idea when it was introduced but it was after 1915), as pictures of them at Kirtlebridge and Quintinshill show up no lining and plain white(?) lettering.

Lindsay

tony brenchley
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by tony brenchley » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:08 pm

Hi Lindsay

I am now confused - easily done these days I'm afraid. Which of the Oxford Rail cranes is nearest to the CR version? Is it product code OR76SCS1002?

Tony B

lindsay_g
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by lindsay_g » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:28 pm

Hi Tony,

I'm pleased to say that on this occasion it's not your advancing years that is causing confusion but the OR website. The site mentions 2 serial numbers, however the images for each number show one with a swan neck and one with the curved jib. All I can take from this is that there would appear to be 2 versions of the model each with 2 different liveries. It may be that there won't be different jibs and just co-incidence that the images had both jibs depicted. They're at Modelrail, so a good time to ask them there.

Lindsay

tony brenchley
Posts: 297
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by tony brenchley » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:23 pm

Thanks Lindsay

I will wait to hear your advice after Modelrail.

Tony

David Blevins
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by David Blevins » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:44 pm

Hopefully this Drawing of the CR 15Ton Crane is readable and not too small.
It is a copy of a Drawing from the now defunct Model Railway Constructor Magazine.
David Blevins.
Attachments
CR  15Ton Crane.jpg
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David Blevins
Posts: 173
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by David Blevins » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:49 pm

Here is a copy of the Oxford Rail official photograph for comparison with the CR Crane Drawing.
David Blevins.
Attachments
oxford 111322[1].jpg
oxford 111322[1].jpg (27.75 KiB) Viewed 1114 times

David Blevins
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by David Blevins » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:08 pm

Took me a little while to find this photo, filed away in a "safe place" only to forgot where it was.
It should give more information on the Crane Jib and Lining as mentioned before.
Hopefully making it clear what the differences are, will it be possible to convert the Oxford Model to a Caledonian Railway 15 Ton Crane?
David Blevins.
Attachments
15 Ton CR Crane.JPG
15 Ton CR Crane.JPG (20.15 KiB) Viewed 1111 times

Steve Parsons
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by Steve Parsons » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:37 pm

Hmm hard one this can I live with the extra cut out in the Jib? I guess if push came to shove then I could but to be honest I doubt very few people would know or notice if you wanted to leave as is.

Once one is sat before me I'll be able to have a good look to see if anything can be done maybe building a new jib using parts drawn and cut on the Silhouette.

I would imagin altering the existing jib could be a problem as even a simple attempt to shorten it could be thwarted by the taper of the Jib arm which reduces as it runs down to the pivot point.

I wonder how long it will be before someone makes an etch of a new three appature jib.

lindsay_g
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by lindsay_g » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:30 am

As Steve says, the chances of anyone noticing the differences between the Caley and the CS Standard cranes may be minimal. You'd be hard pressed to notice many of the differences in the images posted above, the jib stands out but only when you have a comparison of the 2 cranes. So, based on all of that, the Oxford model may be a very acceptable slot-in. I suppose there is an overlap to the "Burning Question" thread in that it is up to the modeller to decide what level of accuracy or otherwise he/she can live with.

There are several articles on the CR cranes in True Line #118, including an article by me which highlights the differences between the cranes. I could re-post the image which details all the differences but the chances are that they'll not be readable within the constraints of image size on the forum. I'd recommend members refer to that edition as there is an article on the D&S kit and another with several images of the cranes in action, providing insight to detail from a variety of angles.

Finally, to save Steve and others some possible future effort, I'd already started redesigning the jib in the Silhouette Cutter software, which I can add to the relevant section of the Forum if needed. I was undecided whether to cut this in styrene which could be easily damaged given the thicknesses of styrene to provide a good representation of the prototype, or to print the shapes on self adhesive label sheets to use as templates for producing a brass/nickel silver jib from scratch. Whichever route is chosen, there's a plethora of detail to be added in particular thousands of rivets. Here's a screenshot of where I'd got to with the side, bottom, and top sections :

Crane Jib.jpg
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These were produced from a scale drawing of the CR crane from Peter Tatlow's book, Railway Breakdown Cranes Volume 1 from which I gleaned much of my knowledge other than that gained from pouring over images of the prototypes.

Lindsay

Steve Parsons
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by Steve Parsons » Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:31 am

Thanks Lindsay that will.be extremely helpful it certainly opens up the options for any of us that want to explore the different choices.
Steve

tony brenchley
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Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by tony brenchley » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:13 pm

Looking at the photos and drawing again gives me the impression that the jib on the crane in the 'Oxford'' crane photo as posted by David with 4 cut outs is longer than the jib on the CR crane with 3 cut outs. Could this account for the extra cut out or is it my eyes?
Tony B

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by jimwatt2mm » Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:42 pm

tony brenchley wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:13 pm
Looking at the photos and drawing again gives me the impression that the jib on the crane in the 'Oxford'' crane photo as posted by David with 4 cut outs is longer than the jib on the CR crane with 3 cut outs. Could this account for the extra cut out or is it my eyes?
Tony B
Using the wheelbase of the bogies as a 'unit', and using dividers on the screen, I estimate the CR crane jig to be c¾ the length of the other, which would account for the extra cut-out.

Jim W

lindsay_g
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by lindsay_g » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:11 pm

Reference to the drawings : The CR crane had a jib 23' 3" from lower pivot to tip, the Mk1 crane a jib of 26' 3" over the same points. The CR crane had a reach radius of 20' and the mk1 22'.

Unfortunately using the wheels or wheelbase isn't safe for estimating as the bogie wheelbase on the CR crane was 5' 6" and the Mk1 was 6'. The wheels on the CR were 2' 11½" dia. and on the Mk1 3' 6". Just some more of the differences between the 2 for everyone to think about!

Lindsay

Jim Summers
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Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by Jim Summers » Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:03 pm

Just to remind everyone that Peter Tatlow's remarkable book on Breakdown Cranes (the volume with the steam cranes) has quite a bit on the history of these cranes with extensive drawings of those from all manufacturers. An interesting aside is that the Caley overrode the makers' recommendations on the size of axle journals, and subsequently wished they hadn't.

For interest, I attach a picture of my model from the D&S kit with practical adaptions to the Caley version - not perfect and I must lower the boiler, but I enjoyed adding the pull-out weight transfer beams for putting under an adjacent locomotive. The model highlights these by showing them drawn out and Foreman McRollox pondering how to get the damn things back. It means a lot to learn that Mike Williams agrees with me on the livery.

JimS
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IMG_20190519_191815 reduced.jpg
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David Blevins
Posts: 173
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by David Blevins » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:43 pm

Beautiful Model Jim, you must be feeling very proud of your achievement - Well done!
Back to the Oxford Rail Model of the 15Ton Crane, would it be possible to remove the top cut-out and then super glue the top half of the Jib to the lower portion?
I would imagine there would be a few MM out but could one file the top half to match and paint over to confuse the "eye" of the beholder.
Just an idea I am contemplating.
David Blevins.

Steve Parsons
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by Steve Parsons » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:03 am

I wondered the same thing David but thought it might be more viable to cut and remove the lowest section instead but which ever end you cut I sill worry you will be hampered by the general decreasing taper of the jib.
I think all we can really do is speculate untill we actually have an example in front of us to "play" with and test all these ideas.

lindsay_g
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Oxford Rail Cowans-Sheldon 15t Crane.

Post by lindsay_g » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:40 am

I had a quick word with the guys on the Oxford stand at Modelrail. They are producing 2 versions based on the (Mk I) curved jib and (Mk II) Swan neck jib. So, for those wanting to use this as a basis of a Caley crane, then it's the curved jib you want to go for.

Lindsay

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