Loco lining

To assist modellers plan and build a Caledonian Railway layout with the appropriate stock. A list/catalogue of supplies and components is available to members in the Association Resources section of the Forum below.
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Orbiston
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Loco lining

Post by Orbiston »

Has anyone done any work on drawing or producing bespoke loco lining for CR locos?
Dave Lochrie
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Dave Lochrie »

By strange coincidence Tony Brenchley was bending my ear on this subject just a couple of weeks ago (probably as a result of somebody bending his a few weeks before that).
I did some work on this several years ago, using the then current version of Photoshop Elements and both software and materials have improved further since. Speaking purely about Caledonian period engines the process has a mayor flaw which I tried to canvass about last year, in that, accurate and closer to scale transfers are possible but are only feasible if they include some of the background colour, at least that which is contained within a lined panel.
This has 2 serious implications.
The first means if I produced transfers I would be imposing my interpretation of Blue which I would be loath to do not least because if you read post http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=476 you will see that I myself am having difficulty pinning that down as far as a 4mm scale model is concerned.
The second is technical, assuming the blue (elephant/jumbo in the room) is resolved, the transfers would need to be printed as a short bespoke run to ensure colour match accuracy, rather than as the 4 colour option provided by the better home printers. This would not too difficult to difficult or expensive to arrange, but the background on the transfer sheets will need to be a match to a commercial paint that is both readily available to all and a consistent colour match, and this is not as simple to achieve as it may seem as some recent expirements with models painted using Humbrol Ultramarine Blue and different primer colours have revealed.

Tony's interest was prompted by the much awaited definitive Jumbo kit see http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=364 and the possiblity of planning ahead to obtain a quality of finish similar to that obtained on many of todays ready-to-run models. One solution to the problem might be to only produce transfers for Goods finished locos, but this might be seen as a cowards option -as well as a wasted opportunity.

Dave L

There is a good blog on the process here
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... ttering-1/
Orbiston
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Orbiston »

Thanks Dave,
I can see the problem with using Crafty Computer transfers and I've never got past the first stage of understanding the computer software!
I was thinking of approaching one or other of the commercial producers to see what was involved in producing lining on clear carrier But didn't want to duplicate effort.
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by jimwatt2mm »

I've produced lining for 2mm scale by the following process:

1. Stick some strips of sellotape to a smooth tile so that they butt up against one another
2. paint a thick coat of gloss white enamel onto the sellotape and give it a good 24hrs+ to dry
3. with a bow pen draw a series of lines in black gloss paint or indian ink leaving a couple of mm between them and allow to dry
4. with a new No 15 scalpel blade, cut lightly either side of a black line, leaving a small edge of white
5. carefully lift the end of the strip of lining thus produced and gently peel it off the sellotape. This takes a bit of practice and some strips will break.
6. dip the strip in a 50/50 mix of varnish and thinners and then place in position on the model using a couple of cocktail sticks to align it

For curved lining, leave the strip in the varnish mix fr a little longer and it will soften sufficiently to allow you to bend it gently round with the cocktail sticks. The curves around cab and frame cut-outs etc. are a we bit too tight for this to work there, but i have got away with doing it with a few short straight bits. The lining has to be cut short of the corners and they are filled in with a fine brush.

The results can be seen in this photo of 108
completed lhs.jpg
completed lhs.jpg (27.3 KiB) Viewed 29061 times
For goods lining I draw a red line alongside the black line and cut leaving a thin edge of white and one of red.
29.jpg
29.jpg (99.29 KiB) Viewed 29061 times
Perhaps this is something i can get away with in 2mm but which wouldn't work in the larger scales.

Jim W
Dave Lochrie
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Dave Lochrie »

Brilliant as ever JIm, I'm surprised you still have any eyesight!

Can I just take this opportunity (because Jim's to modest to) to draw attention to the coverage of Jim's Kirkallanmuir layout in another place
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... allanmuir/
Jim tried to describe its less conventional design concept to me at Model Rail about 7 years ago, but that's no substitute for seeing it come to life.

Dave L
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Dave Lochrie wrote:Brilliant as ever JIm, I'm surprised you still have any eyesight!
Thanks, David. I must confess that for many years i have used a headband magnifier! :oops: Thanks also for the kind comments on the layout.

Jim W
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by jimwatt2mm »

For anyone who is interested, I've just posted photos of all my locos at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... try1836754 .

Jim W
Orbiston
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Orbiston »

I am still pursuing this but I now have a couple of quandaries. Do I produce a series of sheets each pertinent to one model or a generic sheet which might have redundant panels? Do I go ahead and produce a sheet for myself and swallow the set up costs or is there a way of sharing this? What do people think, would there be a demand for bespoke loco lining sheets?
John Duffy
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by John Duffy »

Orbiston wrote:I am still pursuing this but I now have a couple of quandaries. Do I produce a series of sheets each pertinent to one model or a generic sheet which might have redundant panels? Do I go ahead and produce a sheet for myself and swallow the set up costs or is there a way of sharing this? What do people think, would there be a demand for bespoke loco lining sheets?
The bespoke sheet is certainly the way the NB modellers are going. The Kit Connection have sheets for an Atlantic and are producing some for a range of other loco types, they come colour matched to the main body colour. I have recently been in discussion with Mike Wynn about producing a sheet for me for a J37. I think it would be a popular option for CR locos, although avoiding having to colour match blue would definitely be a preference.

John
Orbiston
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Orbiston »

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply, John, it's helped focus my thoughts. I am planing to start with panels for blue engines which I think could be tweaked, ie tank lining for 944 could be cut down for 439 or adjusted for tender sides. I must say I'm surprised at the lack of response.I've found the lack of accurate CR lining to be the biggest drawback to building kits.
peterbunce
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: Loco lining

Post by peterbunce »

Hi,

Can I suggest that a self published book by Peter Smith (of Kirtley Buildings) is looked at - it is on Amazon, put in the title (DECORATING MODEL LOCOMOTIVES & ROLLING STOCK USING PRINTED PAPER.) its shorter than a link!

The book in colour is basically about using printed paper for lining etc., for locos/coaches(primarily solid colour or woodsided) and wagons both company and private owner. He uses Evostik, but I think that varnish (like 'Johnsons Klear', or now called 'Pledge Multi Surface wax') to lay down narrow strips for lining?

He works in 7mm but using a 'Serif' product he says they results can be to any scale. He has a Caledonian Railway crest in the book as well!

It is now in a second edition with more pages from 84 to 96, and is £10.95.

I have a 1st Edition copy but have not done anything from it yet - too busy with other things.and I have no connection with him.

Yours Peter
jim mac
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by jim mac »

Peter Smith and Kirtley Models is featured on our website at http://www.crassoc.org.uk/cra/node/25 under the topic of Station Colours. I note that he has now produced that information as a book, also available from Amazon.
jim mac
peterbunce
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: Loco lining

Post by peterbunce »

Hi Jim,

Quite right, I know Peter Smith; he has a series of books, all 'self produced' with Amazon seeming to be a major source of them being direct.
The books are just a bit less in size than A4 - not quite as deep and full colour.

Thank you for the message

Yours Peter.
JimG
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by JimG »

Has anyone used the Modelmaster lining - their product Part No. 4083 on this web page?

http://www.modelmasterdecals.com/BRLoco ... Lining.php

I picked this up on a forum some time ago and I haven't tried it but thought about trying it.

Jim G.
John Lindsay
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Loco lining

Post by John Lindsay »

I have used the modelmaster black and white lining for a 4mm scale blue class 812 with some success and would recommend them to others. I had to fill in the more non-standard corners with a very fine brush, but it looks ok. I have also done a black jumbo using HMRS red and white line transfers separately. I did the boiler bands and the sandbox using ink jet printer transfer paper - I printed the lines on a black ground using the native white of the paper as the white line. Again, the results are ok, but a little too prominent for scale.
I'll post some pictures in the next few days.
Cheers
John
Orbiston
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Orbiston »

I have tried various proprietary lining and found them all unsuitable for various reasons. Basically you're using LNER lining. I have commissioned panels of lining for the 944 class which I hope will be better. It is expensive as most of the cost is in the design work but less than professional hand lining. I'll let you know how it turns out.
John Lindsay
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Loco lining

Post by John Lindsay »

As promised, here are photos of my first two efforts. The class 812 is using Modelmaster lining. As "Orbison" says, the lining is a bit heavy, but it would be for LNER lining too. I feel the white is too prominent, particularly on the splasher/sandbox. That said, I think the result is reasonable and a lot better than any effort I could manage with a bow pen. I haven't got years to practice; I'm happy to try pen lining on coaching stock, but locos get too much scrutiny for me to be happy with the inevitable wavy lines.

With my next blue loco, I might try printing the black lines on white transfer paper, but matching the blue would be necessary to get an accurate white line; not easy with a inkjet printer - I'll have to think about that one.

The Jumbo was done with separate HRMS red and white lining for the cab sides and tender. I used printing on white transfer paper for the boiler bands and splashers - matching black is not quite the same problem as blue. When lining the front of the cab, you do notice that the DJH kit does need updating.

Cheers

John
Attachments
Blue 812
Blue 812
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Black Jumbo
Black Jumbo
black Jumbo small.jpg (140.21 KiB) Viewed 27276 times
Jim Summers
Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Jim Summers »

Thanks for showing those, John.
These are pretty impressive results.

Jim S
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Jim Summers wrote:Thanks for showing those, John.
These are pretty impressive results.

Jim S
It's a pity there are no 'like' and 'agree' buttons on here!

Both locos look good.

Jim W
Orbiston
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Orbiston »

I am embarrassed that this has taken so long and I still haven't finished - I cant even remember when I started building but I'm sure its at least 10 years! Still slow but sure! I did get round to getting some transfers prepared. I am very pleased with them. I know there are lots of people out there who could do better but for average joes like me when its a bonus if the thing moves at all the transfers are a million times better than I've achieved with other proprietary transfers or even painted selotape - which I tried! Firstly it is a time consuming process with lots of toing and froing with the graphic artist. We went through a number of dummy runs before we settled on a final design. Secondly it is expensive - about £130 to produce 4 sets of transfers which is understandable given the set up costs and postage from Australia. That to me is worth it. I doubt if I could get anyone to hand line a loco for £30. I went down the road of producing lining specifically for the 944 class. For my next set I'm going to make it more generic. It looks like I can adapt the 944 sheets for the 171 I'm working on and the 439 sitting in the box. Also when handling large pieces of transfer such as the cab surrounds it is difficult to stop them curling up. So for my next effort I'm going for smaller sections of lining which can cover a number of 4-6-0 classes - wheel arches, coupling rod covers, cab sides and maybe throw in the front wheel arch of the 439 if there's room. Lastly I still have a problem of protecting the transfer. I made the mistake of varnishing one side after I'd applied the transfer. The varnish promptly attacked the transfer. Of course it did it at the corners which couldn't be repaired without redoing the whole thing. I'm trying to build up the courage to try transfix to see if that is any better. Anyway that's my experience if anyone is interested in producing transfers hope this is helpful. Sorry I cant show you what they look like but I don't know how to add a picture! You'll be old one day too!
John Lindsay
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Loco lining

Post by John Lindsay »

Has anyone tried Fox Transfers LNER lining? I've just bought a set to try and it arrived today. It's difficult to judge when on the baking paper, but it might be finer than the Modelmaster equivalent.
I'll post a photo when I've tried it out on my next effort (Caley Coaches Class 104), but don't hold your breath, it's only taken three and a half years to get to the painting stage!

Cheers

John
John Lindsay
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Loco lining

Post by John Lindsay »

It's been a while - sorry! Here is a photo of a comparison between the Modelmaster and Fox Transfers 4mm LNER lining.

The centre loco has the Modelmaster whilst the other two have Fox. I definitely prefer the Fox version as the white is less prominent.

The photo also compares the RailMatch Caley light blue (the class 104) and the Phoenix version (class 812). I mixed the two for the class 670, which I think makes a better colour than either on their own. The RailMatch version is very similar to the colour currently carried by 419 at Bo'ness, but it is a little "lurid"!

Cheers

John
Attachments
lining v small.jpg
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Orbiston
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Re: Loco lining

Post by Orbiston »

Sorry me again. I wasn't too happy with previous efforts so I'm investigating commissioning some transfers from Fox. I'm thinking about the splashers on 439 and 171 classes in particular. Does anyone already have exact measurements either in full size or in 00 for these before I drive myself mad trying to work them out.
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