New RTR mineral wagon

To assist modellers plan and build a Caledonian Railway layout with the appropriate stock. A list/catalogue of supplies and components is available to members in the Association Resources section of the Forum below.
Steve Parsons
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Steve Parsons » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:03 pm

I've just seen this due for release this year, might come in handy to bulk out your wagon fleet, Not sure of the PO liveries or if this type of wagon was used by private companies at all perhaps some one could let us know

http://www.oxfordrail.com/76/OR76MW4.htm

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:33 pm

That looks like the NBR equivalent of CR Diagram 46. Same overall dimensions and built from 1896 onwards, according to Bill Sewell's book. Side door ironwork is the main difference between theirs and ours.

Best

Mike

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Dave Lochrie » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:58 pm

Steve,
suitable for quite a few liveries, but to save you repainting, they are planning 3 trader liveries all of which appear more authentic, nothing that couldn't be fixed with a bit of weathering, than your average UK model PO wagon for -1] R. Taylor & Sons Ltd, Dundee; 2] Wilsons & Clyde, Netherburn Colliery and 3] Hamilton Palace Colliery, http://www.oxfordrail.com/76/OR76MW4%20 ... 0Notes.htm. this will be the most authentic Scottish wagon yet (I have noticed somewhere that Hornby is producing its standard 4 Plank dropside wagon in NBR livery, which I bet will fly of the shelves at the SEC, but this is simply an NB livery applied to an existing generic body). I can't comment of the top of my head whether any of these used the NB standard mineral pattern, but 1 & 3 certainly had wagons to the similar comparative Caledonian Diag 22 style. Transfers for the first two are also available in 4 and 7mm from POWsides.
There were thousands in NB use, many surviving into the 1950's in Departmental and NCB use.

Dave L
Last edited by Dave Lochrie on Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

tony brenchley
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by tony brenchley » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:38 am

Yes - to confirm what Mike has already said this looks like a NBR 'Jubilee' 8-ton mineral wagon which was the NBR equivalent of our diagram 22 wagon. The original design was for dead buffer wagon (for which you have seen my scratch built bodies Steve) but the sprung buffer version was built in 1000s and used by many colliery owners principally on the NBR system in Lothian and Fife. A couple of photos attached.
Tony B
NBR 8ton jubilee wagon Forum.jpg
NBR 8ton jubilee wagon Forum.jpg (126.95 KiB) Viewed 25985 times
NBR Jubilee Wagon 2 Forum.jpg
NBR Jubilee Wagon 2 Forum.jpg (217.48 KiB) Viewed 25985 times

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Dave Lochrie » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:31 am

Some further info on the North British SSA Diag 16A wagons which are scheduled, on the Hattons website, as due April onwards in NB livery with the trader liveried versions several months behind, with a pre-order price of 9.50. The photo of the unpainted model was taken in the display case at the NEC and gives some idea of the quality, but I wouldn't be too worried by the brake arrangement on the sample.
Oxfordrail sample.jpg
Oxfordrail sample.jpg (59.57 KiB) Viewed 25883 times

There are several reasons why Oxford Rail wagons are more finescale friendly than even the best RTR models. So far they have been produced on self-coloured plastic which has certain benefits for the modeller in terms of ability to modify without having to paint match and painting is easier without further obscuring the moulded detail.
Oxford construction.png
Oxford construction.png (470.53 KiB) Viewed 25883 times
The other benefit is the way that the wagons are assembled. The body, solebars and headstocks are moulded in one piece with a flat floor, the under frame with w-irons, springs and axle boxes (which many discard) are moulded as a sub chassis and are partially held in place by the removable buffers. The width between solebars is enough to allow any of the commercial springing/ suspension systems and the only drawback I can foresee is that due to the thickness of the floor the depth of solebars is just over 3mm leaving the buffers sitting 0.5mm too high using MJT or Bedford/Eileens etchings. It will be possible to remove some plastic at this point and I may experiment on the 1923 mineral before buying the NB wagons as it has no place on my layout, but there is no guarantee that the NB wagons will be identical to this so I will probably wait.

Overall these look a good partner to our True Line Diag 22 and 46 Mineral bodies by Mike Williams and Camelon needs plenty of mineral wagons. Other than NBR, I just may not be lettering too many thirled or trader wagons till Ed McKenna has finished his mammoth task.

Dave L

I note it has been given the thumbs-up by Brian Macdonald, Former Chairman NBRSG who says
From the detailed model photo this seems to be a highly accurate rendering of the "NB 8 ton mineral wood framed wagon" .... From detailed study of the pre production model photo this model appears correct in almost every respect except for some solebar detail (probably to be printed on). The especially distinctive end door is well captured.

Coronach
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Coronach » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:37 am

I noticed on the Albion Yard blog that Adrian Swain is highly critical of this new wagon. His comments are offered for any observations;

"“...—MOST of the nuts on the outside are seriously mispositioned” Bearing in mind that about a dozen have been omitted and others respaced I consider that about 50%+ are incorrectly positioned including ALL those on the undersized corner plate. Whether the tooling is fully finished is not clear as the solebars are lacking almost all detail and the door catches on the side are completely absent at the moment. It is a pity, bearing in mind that two of the illustrated liveries are actually on CR wagons, that OR did not model that prototype instead. Similar vintage. similar size, similar brakes, Scottish origins but with cupboard side doors, 4 equal width planks and very different design buffers.

OR seem to have mixed up the NBR Dia 1 with Dia 26, the chosen prototype, in that the end door bolt positions are as per Dia 1. They have also completely misinterpreted how the end door hinge loop operates. It is like a huge split pin attached either side of the door and resting on a bearer which OR assume to be a minute hinge !! Tatlow LNER Vol 3 has a good selection of photos and Mr T’s drawing and Hooper’s book has GAs which show the end door hinge design well. After previous attempts to assist OR failed I shall concentrate my efforts on informing modellers of the pitfalls as I fear OR are unlikely to bin all the tooling and start again. Regards Adrian..."

iainkirk
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:56 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by iainkirk » Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:07 pm

I think I'll go with Brian MacDonald frankly.
Mr Swain is like a broken record :?
May we have the clarity to see our work, the courage to embrace it, and the capacity to discharge it.
Robert Fripp

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:13 am

Whatever you think about Adrian Swain and his pronouncements, the sample as it stands lacks crown plates and other ironwork on the solebar, and the brake gear should be one shoe only, operating on the axle at the tipping door end.

Best

Mike
Last edited by MIKEWILLIAMS on Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by jimwatt2mm » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:56 pm

Looking more closely at the hinge hoops, there is a rather odd 'fitment' on the top of them!

Jim W

Coronach
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Coronach » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:08 am

In all fairness, the sample I viewed at Glasgow had a more correct form of brake gear. I do find Mr Swain's tone a bit self-righteous and condescending in truth.
Whilst acknowledging that there may be issues around the spacing of rivets and the like, I do hope these don't detract too much from what on the surface at least looks to be not too bad a model.

Dave.

stuartp
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by stuartp » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:29 pm

I apologise, I confess to being responsible for pointing Mr Swain at this page (and in particular Mr Macdonald's endorsement) from another site where was giving the wagon his characteristic shoeing based solely on the grainy photo in Oxford's own website. In particular I pointed out that the pre-production sample in Dave's photo was pretty close to the two prototype pics (neither of which has all the rivets/nuts/bolts/whatever in exactly the same place on both wagons) and that 'riddled with errors' was an over-dramatisation. He responded firstly by questioning my numeracy, then by confusing Brian Macdonald with Brian McDermott of MRE, then by suggesting that the NBRSG had somehow been forced into giving their endorsement to a substandard product.

I won't make that mistake again.

stuartp
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by stuartp » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:33 pm

Incidentally, there is a colour photo of the Wilson and Clyde version in one of the mags I was leafing through this lunchtime (Hornby Mag I think). The crown plates and other solebar ironwork are picked out in black but I can't tell from the photo whether they have picked out mouldings in black or just printed them on a plain solebar. The latter I suspect. I also suspect that the hoop hinge issue is a mass-manufacturing compromise to ensure it stays firmly attached to the wagon.

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Dave Lochrie » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:48 am

No need to apologise Stuart, but it does remind me why I look at other fora (I think that's the correct plural but more than 40 years have past since I studied Latin, its mostly Arabic and Russian these days) but have never ventured to contribute.
There are enough detail variations between the two pictures Tony posted above (apart from them being different diagrams) at least 17, but I'm not going to show-off my "spot the difference" skills developed at taxpayer expense. The point is you can find errors and inconsistances if you look hard enough. Bearing in mind that the photograph is of a pre-production sample the worst "errors" are.
Oxfordrail%20sample.jpg
Anotated Sample
Oxfordrail%20sample.jpg (61.93 KiB) Viewed 25570 times
A -Nuts on the adjacent body strapping usually match the pairs on the door on most NB versions, can't imagine what they were looking at to get this wrong.
B -The extra brake shoe, as I said earlier has disappeared from later samples.
C -There are no Crown Plates on the 1923 RCH mineral for comparison, but it would be an annoying omission, on this model. NBR Developments do sets amongst others.
D -No representation of any means of fastening the door, in fact nothing where you'd expect to find some representation.
E - Loop hinges some compromise here but adding this detail has been common practice since the MWCo kits.
NBR Jubilee Wagon GA side elevation.jpg
GA Detail
NBR Jubilee Wagon GA side elevation.jpg (187.29 KiB) Viewed 25570 times
I model in P4 (though with an EM approach to detail, and I doubt if a few odd missing details will stop me purchasing a handful, even if I end up re-lettering to taste.
If commercially successful it could pave the way to further Scottish prototypes.

Dave L

Coronach
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Coronach » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:47 pm

Thanks Dave.

I'm reassured by this. None of the remaining faults, although slightly irksome are truly insurmountable.
Certainly easier than getting the cast axles on a 51L kit truly aligned! :-)

Dave.

Coronach
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Coronach » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:47 pm

Thanks Dave.

I'm reassured by this. None of the remaining faults, although slightly irksome are truly insurmountable.
Certainly easier than getting the cast axles on a 51L kit truly aligned! :-)

Dave.

stuartp
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by stuartp » Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:56 pm

Yes, Thank you Dave (L). I'm with t'other Dave here too, close enough to not worry me. I'm grateful to Mr Swain for pointing out shortcomings in RTR models so I can make an informed judgement (Dapol Stove and brake tender - no thanks; Oxford mineral - close enough for me) but he does go on a bit.

Now all I need to do is find evidence of one of these in 1950s Galloway. Near Galloway would do ...

Dave John
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Dave John » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:44 pm

Any sort of pre grouping stock from a rtr manufacturer is welcome, so I bought a couple of the PO ones. Out of the box a pair of crisply moulded and well lettered OO wagons.

Oxford thankfully use a minimum of adhesive, first thing, buffers off and chassis removed. I ascertained that EM wheels on 26 mm axles wouldn't fit, and if I used the oxford 25mm axle the rear face of the plastic W irons would need to be thinned a bit. I therefore opted to use 51L etched pre group W irons with the axlebox and spring carefully removed from the original chassis, the brake block and push rod unclipped first. A few bits of sheet styrene to adjust the height and a bit of copper clad for the couplings all glued in place quite simply.

The body itself has a couple of omissions which are easily rectified, so I added proper loop hinges and horse shunting loops from wire. Since the metal bar weight would be too thick to go under the floor I just added it inside, no problem since I wanted loaded wagons anyway. Painting and a bit of weathering to mute the colours completed the job.

Bearing in mind that wagons were built to this general diagram by an assortment of builders for various customers there were bound to be variations. Looking at various photos it seems that some had a door spring buffing plate, some didn't. Similarly, the brakes could be single or both side as time went on.


oxford wagons.jpg
oxford wagons.jpg (92.14 KiB) Viewed 24865 times
In conclusion, a very welcome rtr wagon on which to base a model.

Coronach
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Coronach » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:09 pm

I used standard Gibson EM axles on my RCH wagons though I haven't converted any of these yet.Can't see there being any appreciabledifference but I'll have a play around later and report back.

Dave.

Coronach
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Coronach » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:56 pm

Having done so I can confirm that replacement axleguards are the way ahead here. I'll be using Bill Bedford's RCH 1907 pattern which seem a decent match.

Dave.

theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by theparley » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:07 pm

In relation to the Oxford Rail 4-Plank Wagons, within this thread there is a post which says that "Loop hinges (involve) some compromise here but adding this detail has been common practice since the MWCo kits".
In order to take advantage of other's experience, can someone please provide simple details as to how this is done ?

Alan K
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Alan K » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:27 pm

Hi Douglas
If you've got the Wagons CD, have a look at the Coke Wagon, which has the same loop hinge arrangement. There is an end view which shows that the bottom parts of the 'loop' are vertical straps which bolt onto the timber of the 'door'. The top rail on which the loops swing is fixed to the the wagon sides by those massive horizontal brackets. So the loops and the vertical straps need to look as though they are one piece of ironwork. I guess the simplest way of simulating that would be to have wire loops which are embedded into holes drilled in the top of the straps. I haven't seen the model close up to see how this has been achieved, but I think it could be improved using a 0.5mm drill and a couple of loops of wire suitably bent round a former, size as per Dave's drawing.

Alan

Mike 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Mike 1 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:01 am

Whilst I wouldn't copy somebody else's model and repeat their mistakes, this is my version in Gauge 3.

Mike
Attachments
End door assembly.jpg
End door assembly.jpg (59.34 KiB) Viewed 4531 times

Alan K
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by Alan K » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:58 pm

That's a good example of the old adage that a picture is worth a thousand words....!

Alan

theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by theparley » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:50 am

The last three posts are helpful and appreciated. Thank you.
Douglas

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: New RTR mineral wagon

Post by jimwatt2mm » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:04 pm

I can't for the life of me think how the manufacturers imagined the end door hinge worked as they originally depicted it!

Jim W

Post Reply