HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

How to do it, advice sought and offered.
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theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by theparley » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:48 pm

Help Please !!!

I brush painted a TLM Pickering wagon with Phoenix Precision P980, Red Oxide Matt and encountered adhesion problems with my HMRS Methfix Transfers.

In an attempt to avoid a repeat, I sprayed a Diagram 22 with Halfords Grey Primer and then to facilitate the application (or so I thought) of the same Methfix transfers, I brush painted three light coats of Johnson's Clear. Again, the transfers did not adhere.

There are three points I should add.
1) My HMRS transfer sheet P4S is not exactly new
2) There is nothing to indicate whether the sheet is Pressfix or Methfix, but HMRS say that Pressfix transfers can be applied using the Methfix process (which I did).
3) HMRS do say that if there is silicone present in the paint, then adhesion will be adversely affected. If this is the problem with paint P980, is it also the problem with "Clear" ?

One gripe. There is a decided scarcity of the letter "W" on HMRS sheet P4S which makes the construction of a rake of "Waldie" wagons somewhat expensive. Does anyone know of a Scottish PO trader whose name consisted entirely of vowels ?

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by jimwatt2mm » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:06 pm

Sorry, can't help with the transfer problem as I've never used them (they don't do any in 2MM :( ).

Nor do I know of a Scottish PO wagon owner with only vowels, but there's probably a Welsh one with only consonants! :D

Jim W

jasp
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by jasp » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:32 pm

It seems to be generally accepted that transfers are better on glosshich can then be overcoated with matt.
I suspect that Klear has silicone in it as it was produced as a floor finish.
Jim P

theparley
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Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by theparley » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:36 pm

What, please is glosshich ?

JimG
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:15 pm

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by JimG » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:52 am

"gloss which" :D

Jim G.

dumb buffer
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Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by dumb buffer » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:02 am

I have a large pile of very old HMRS transfers. I have no idea whether they are Pressfix or Methfix. I use them with Carr's Transfix (from C & L). I put a wee drop of Transfix on the wagon, lay the transfer on it to soak, press it gently and carefully down in place with a suitable blunt instrument (Cocktail stick), then another wee drop of Transfix on top. Leave for no more than a minute, then press down with a wad of kitchen towel to absorb the liquid and press the transfer firmly in place. Remove the backing paper with a scalpel point or very fine pointed tweezers, and give it another press with the dry kitchen towel. Job done! It seems to work equally well on gloss or matt surfaces -- after all most of the transfers are on wagons, and it seems contradictory to put a patch of gloss on them, then cover it with matt varnish. My CR wagons are all painted with Halfords Red Oxide Primer and the transfer goes straight on top of this. Later I'll overspray the whole thing with matt varnish, but even when I haven't done that I've never had a transfer become detached.

Allan Ferguson

theparley
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Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by theparley » Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:50 pm

Allan,

Thank you for that. I looked on the C&L website, where they say:

C1203 – Transfix (Fixing Transfers)
Transfix is a softener for transfer carrier films. It allows the transfer to lie down over raised details such as planks, rivets etc. and to conform to double curvatures as on cars and aircraft models. It may also be used to fix and reposition "Pressfix" transfers after removal of the adhesive. After a coat of clear varnish the softened edges are no longer apparent.

So, we learn something new every.

Douglas Teenan

dumb buffer
Posts: 505
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Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by dumb buffer » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:52 pm

Well -- if only I'd read the instructions....

Allan F
theparley wrote:Allan,

Thank you for that. I looked on the C&L website, where they say:

C1203 – Transfix (Fixing Transfers)
Transfix is a softener for transfer carrier films. It allows the transfer to lie down over raised details such as planks, rivets etc. and to conform to double curvatures as on cars and aircraft models. It may also be used to fix and reposition "Pressfix" transfers after removal of the adhesive. After a coat of clear varnish the softened edges are no longer apparent.

So, we learn something new every.

Douglas Teenan

Alan K
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Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by Alan K » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:48 pm

The other thing which hasn't been mentioned is the strength of the meths. Apparently the concentration was originally 2:1 but is now given in the most recent instructions as 3:1. Could it be that a weaker solution of meths and water isn't softening the gum enough to give good adhesion? I've been doing some transfers recently and had forgotten about matt finish not being ideal and sure enough I got adhesion problems. I then put a dab of acrylic varnish (Tamiya X-22 Clear) on where the letter was to be applied, and had no problem with adhesion afterwards. Round about the same time I finally acquired some 'Pledge Multi Surface Polish' (which is apparently the successor to Johnson's Klear) and I think I used that instead of varnish but didn't have any adhesion problems either.
So especially if your transfers are old it might be worth a try with a stronger mix. My transfer sheet is quite old but with the 3:1 mix on top of varnish, I found that when I made a mistake (to my embarrassment, I had applied 'G&WS' instead of G&SW to a van side!!) I couldn't get the wretched transfer off without damaging the paint layer underneath.

Alan

theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by theparley » Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:11 pm

Alan,
Thank you again for your contribution to the topic.

A visit to the shops today resulted in the purchase of a can of Humbrol Acrylic Gloss Spray Varnish, (a) to hopefully secure the already placed but weakly adhering HMRS letters and (b) to prepare the surface for the outstanding letters. Any, silicon effect of the Klear should also be neutralised.

I will try the stronger meths mixture. Apart from Morris Dancing, everything should be tried at least once. I may/will ask these nice people at HMRS why they reduced the ratio.

Having read an article ( http://www.wikihow.com/Remove-Paint-fro ... ith-Dettol) on the internet recently, I immersed a Bachmann wagon in said antiseptic for 24-hours in order to remove the lettering. It worked a treat. How it could be made to work on a single letter is not known, but it might be something to think about.

Douglas

John Lindsay
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Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by John Lindsay » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:05 pm

I can't add much to the debate, but can thoroughly recommend Morris dancing!

Getting back to the issue, I've not had much problem with relatively new HMRS lettering adhering to matt finished wagons.

John

David Thorpe
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:58 pm

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by David Thorpe » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:08 pm

I've recently bitten the bullet at at long last applied quite a lot of HMRS Pressfix transfers to a number of locos, coaches and wagons. The vast majority of these have been painted in either satin or matt enamel paint. My transfers varied from one batch that must have been at least 20 years old to some brand new ones. All went on successfully. In applying them I used either Micro Sol or Micro Set, which appear to be meant for conventional waterslide transfers but certainly worked with the Pressfix ones. I suspect that they' may be similar to the Transfix that Allan mentioned a few posts before this. I've never found much difference between the two, but I do note that Micro Set is meant to aid adhesion of the transfers - http://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/mer ... estsellers . Or you may find this thread helpful: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... transfers/

DT

theparley
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Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by theparley » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:24 pm

David,
Yes, that's interesting on a number of counts. Based on your experience:
1) The age of the Pressfix transfers doesn't seem to matter.
2) The surface on which the transfers (satin or matt), is irrelevant - but see below
3) Micro Set and Sol (which I use always with waterslide decals) help the adhesion of Pressfix transfers.

The second of your website links has been bookmarked for future reference, if and when I get around to lining.

I do feel that my adhesion problem arose from silicon in the Phoenix Precision Matt Paint (P980 Red Oxide) and also in Johnson's Klear. As a result of over-coating both with Tamiya X-22 Clear Varnish, subsequent transfer application has gone without a hitch.

Note that I have used the term "transfer" for the HMRS product and "decal" for waterslide (Fox, Modelmaster and others), as I believe they have different adhesive properties.

There is one other point. I referred earlier in this post to the scarcity of certain letters in the HMRS Sheets for, in my instance, white shaded black. It strikes me that it might just be possible to use white letters (and not necessarily HMRS ones) and shade them myself. Is there a pen which can be used, or is it a case of alcoholic abstinence, a steady hand, enamel or oil paint and a fine paint brush ?

Douglas

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by jimwatt2mm » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:23 pm

theparley wrote: ....., or is it a case of alcoholic abstinence, a steady hand, enamel or oil paint and a fine paint brush ?
That's how I do all my lettering! :) (though I would admit the first part is not 'total', a wee dram doesn't go amiss!)

Jim W

David Thorpe
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:58 pm

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by David Thorpe » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:44 pm

theparley wrote:Yes, that's interesting on a number of counts. Based on your experience:
1) The age of the Pressfix transfers doesn't seem to matter.
2) The surface on which the transfers (satin or matt), is irrelevant - but see below
3) Micro Set and Sol (which I use always with waterslide decals) help the adhesion of Pressfix transfers.....
Note that I have used the term "transfer" for the HMRS product and "decal" for waterslide (Fox, Modelmaster and others), as I believe they have different adhesive properties.
I do think that age of the Pressfix transfers matters, if only because I've read of quite a few people who've tried using old ones without success and ended up throwing them away. I think I was lucky - I'd kept them carefully and, as I said, use MicroSol and/or Microset with them. I was a little disappointed that the Pressfix transfers (old and new) were a bit thicker than I had hoped.

I've always thought that decal was the American for transfer! Certainly many many years ago when as a boy I made Airfix planes and boats, they always came with transfers and it wasn't until some years later that I first heard the term decal.

DT

Alan K
Posts: 343
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Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by Alan K » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:50 pm

I've had some success with the Rotring pen and either Rotring's own inks or more recently with Magicolor acrylics. I've used white a lot for lettering and it's fickle and generally a pain in the a--e, but black goes on better. The Rotring pen is not cheap, and the finer nibs need tlc. What width of line would you need to have for your shading, and how wide is the white lettering? I've got a Rotring pen with a 0.5mm nib which is currently filled with black acrylic - I haven't ever tried to shade white, but I could try it out on a sample letter and let you know how it works if you like.

Alan

theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by theparley » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:22 pm

Alan,

The Rotring Pen idea is an interesting one and thank you for the offer of conducting a trial for me; that was kind of you.

As it happens, I do have a 0.5mm Rotring pen, together with their own brand of white and black drawing inks. Paints are graded in what I call the "forgiving" scale. Acrylics are at one end with oils at the other. If, as I think is the case, that, Rotring inks fall into the permanent category, correcting mistakes would be difficult. However, nothing ventured, nothing gained. It would be back to the steady hand !

When constructing a, say Parkside kit, it is recommended that the sides are painted and lettered before assembly. That facility is not available when re-branding a ready-to-run model or when decorating a TLM resin body. So, to rest my hand at the right level for ease of painting and lettering, I made a wooden jig with a slot across it. The depth of the slot is the width of an 00-gauge coach/wagon and its width is just a little more than the height of a van or coach. I find this to be helpful, but I cannot claim it as an original idea, it came from, where else, the internet.

HMRS do say that where their Pressfix transfers have lost their stickiness, they can be treated as Methfix.

Douglas

Dave John
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: HMRS Transfer Adhesion Problems

Post by Dave John » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:06 pm

I have never got on well with pressfix, I always use the methfix ones. I just use straight meths, but maybe I have lived in Glasgow too long. The CR on this wagon is from the HMRS sheet.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... ep-part-2/

They can be repositioned after the backing is removed, but its a delicate process. I too use a 0.1 rotring with a white ink to touch in any bits that don't stick. The final coat is Lidl hairspray. I take no responsibility if anyone actually spays it on their hair.

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