Diagram 59 wagon query

How to do it, advice sought and offered.
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Alan K
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by Alan K »

I'm preparing some TLM wagons for painting and have been looking at drawing 13082 in the Wagon Book, which is for the 3 loop hinge end doors. I've got an obsession about wanting to understand what things are for, and am puzzled about those loops on each side next to the base of the end door. Are they handles - but they don't seem to be attached to the door unless they are part of the metal strap along the bottom of the door? Or are they part of a catch mechanism to keep the door closed? The short horizontal straps on the sides appear to be cranked round the side plank ends and hook through the loops. Can anyone advise?

Alan
Dave John
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by Dave John »

I had the same question when I built a pair.

I think they are sheet rings.

Looking in the wagon book, the 1903 drawing and the build photo of the first 1000 Hurst Nelson wagons doesn't have them. However the 1905 drawing with the modified end door and the build photo of the next 1000 wagons quite clearly does have them at both ends. They were still fitted on the 1916 build when the steel underframes were substituted with oak ones due to wartime steel shortages. Indeed the D59 seems to be the only CR wagon fitted with them, but as to why I couldn't really say.

My only guess would be that minerals other than coal (or perhaps other goods) which required sheeting were carried.
Alan K
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by Alan K »

Hi Dave
Don't think we're talking about the same thing - I think you're right that those little ones are sheet rings by the way - what I was referring to were the two big 'reverse D' shape loops at each side of the bottom of the end door. On the TLM D59 wagon, they're represented as triangular 'lugs' which I've pared off and replaced with more realistic brass ones made from scrap fret and superglued in place. But I still don't understand what they're for and how they work if they have a mechanical function - like a catch, which is my suspicion!
I've seen the photos of your two, and they look great. I noticed that you've done the brakes like the 1905 Hurst Nelson photo (and the drawing) which has brake shoes on 2 axles but brake lever only on that side. I can't find any phographic evidence for it, but I'm inclined to think that by 'my' late period Caley, some of these steel underframe wagons would have been converted to Morton 'either side' in order to conform with the 1911 BOT ruling, so I'm planning to have some of my four with Morton instead.....!

Alan
Dave John
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by Dave John »

Ah, my mistake Alan. I see the bits you mean.

Like you I replaced the solid ones with a bit of scrap etch. Could be a catch, but I did wonder if they acted as a door banger if the end didn't quite come down straight after the wagon was tipped ?

I'm sure you are right about the brakes, many must have been converted over time.
MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

Now I'm clear about what we're talking about I can give you the answer! Yes, they are catches that held the end doors closed. To release the door, you put your hand in the hole and slid the catch upwards, thus freeing the bottom bar of the door. If you have old MRJs an article in No.12 explains all, with close-up photos.

Best

Mike
Alan K
Posts: 377
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by Alan K »

Thanks Mike. I suspected that you might have the answer!

Alan
Jim Summers
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by Jim Summers »

These two photos may prove the matter. I took them today in the SRPS Museum at Bo'ness.

Jim S
End door Caley at SRPS .jpg
End door Caley at SRPS .jpg (81.06 KiB) Viewed 615 times
End door NBR at SRPS .jpg
End door NBR at SRPS .jpg (82.75 KiB) Viewed 615 times
MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 518
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

Very useful pictures Jim, thank you. These are the end door catches used on CR diagrams 22 and 46, but not 59. Here's the one I was talking about for the 59s, scanned from an old MRJ. I see that the Caley used square nuts and the NBR favoured hexagonal.

Best

Mike
D59 door catch.jpg
D59 door catch.jpg (28.78 KiB) Viewed 540 times
Mike 1
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:46 pm

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by Mike 1 »

You may be right about square or hexagonal nuts but I would never rely on a preserved wagon or carriage for such details as they will have gone through several owners, been repaired several times and then "restored" on a budget, probably by people with no specific knowledge of the real thing.

I am NOT criticising those who spend their time rescuing and restoring these old relics for us, but in the scheme of things the type of nut is not important to them at the time.

Mike
jasp
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: Diagram 59 wagon query

Post by jasp »

It is not so much a question of not paying heed to what was used on the prototype but availability of eg Whitworth threaded bolts and square nuts.
Cost of “specials” such as the above would be prohibitive cf “off the shelf” hence use of the latter in heritage railway restoration.
Jim P
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