Wagon Colours

How to do it, advice sought and offered.
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

Can anyone provide body colours to match specific traders who used the TLM, RY Pickering wagons ?
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by jimwatt2mm »

theparley wrote:Can anyone provide body colours to match specific traders who used the TLM, RY Pickering wagons ?
How precise do we need to be? There have been several threads on RMWeb on the topic of wagon colours. Each days paint was mixed from the basic pigments and oil in a less than precise manner, so the chances of two days wagons being exactly the same colour is remote. I've heard it quoted by an old painter from Doncaster that in LNER days the only colour 'The Bosses' were fussed about was that of the top link locos. Add to that the effects of soot, sulphurous fumes and, in the case of coal wagons, coal dust in the environment in which they worked wagons of the same owner might look quite different depending on how long, and where, they had been in service. In any case, whose to tell you at this remove in time whether a colour is precisely right or wrong.

Jim W (donning his hair shirt en route to the penitent's stool for unrepentant heretics)
Dave John
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by Dave John »

I agree totally with Jim W.

Over the years I have been involved with the restoration of various historic buildings in Glasgow, and my reference for paint is a Historic Scotland paint expert. Sampling of victorian paints shows that they were variable and got dulled quickly. Coal, oil, gas. So if you have a reference that says "brown" choose a shade that looks nice. If its a bit older go a bit yellower, linseed oil drifts that way. Green, go darkish. Reds would go pinkish. Blues would just fade a bit. Whites would oxidise to creams. Paints back then were organic, they had a visceral quality, almost a life of their own.

A couple of years ago I redid the pulpit lighting of "Cottiers" in the West end. The shift from illumination at about 3000 K halogen to about 4500 k LED made a huge difference, and previously invisible details began to show as highlights. Bear in mind that it was painted back in the CR era, and as such is probably a reasonable example of the way paints of that era behaved.

If you think paints are difficult talk to stained glass restorers. I was involved with the removal of the Webster window at Lansdowne parish church, its in a racking system I built to let the glass breathe. Really. Thats a whole subject on its own, and as usual I am wandering way off topic.

So, quite simple. Colour is in the eye of the beholder. Of course we modellers tend to be past the first flush of youth. We are losing highlights, I think mainly towards the blues, and we see whites towards yellows. Oh, and there is a significant gender difference in colour perception, again that is a whole new can of worms.

As ever I apologise for wandering off into lateral thoughts, but thanks all for making me think.
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

The first response to my question asked how precise I wanted to be. The answer to that is simple. I don’t want British Standard numbers, the shade referenced to a Dulux or Humbrol colour chart (at least not at this stage), or how particular colours (or paint formulations) reacted to usage and weather.

There is no merit in my painting a “Waldie” wagon in red if the starting colour was blue, or an “Archibald Russell” wagon in green if the starting colour was brown. So, a straightforward response would be a good starting point. However, I wouldn't turn away further elaboration, such as dark red, brown oxide or whatever.

I am in possession of the following publications:
1. “Private Owner Wagons Volume 4” by Bill Hudson
2. “Private Owner Wagons” Books 1 – 4, by A.G.Thomas
3. “Private Owner Wagons” by Peter Matthews
4. “Caledonian Railway Wagons” by Mike Williams.
5. The "Powsides" catalogue
6. Information from the Robbie's Rolling Stock range.
7. "Railway Archive No. 34 containing Ed McKenna's article on Scottish Traders' Wagons
8. "Coal Trade Wagons" by L.Tavender

Can I therefore repeat my original question, viz: Can anyone provide body colours to match specific traders who used the TLM, RY Pickering wagons ? As a supplementary, the "Waldie" and "Archibald Russell (A.R)" wagons are of particular interest.
ScottW
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:25 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by ScottW »

Rather than list all the publications in your possession I think it may be better to list which particular private traders wagon you wish to know the colour of. I have just recently completed a model of an Archibald Russell 'Tannochside Colliery' wagon and according to the Caledonian Railway wagon book it was painted "brown oxide, white letters shaded black. Top plank vermillion".
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by jimwatt2mm »

The A G Thomas books all quote the livery of the wagon, as do any other Po wagon drawings or sketches I've seen. The point I was trying to make, and backed up by Dave, was that what exactly constitutes 'dark red oxide' or 'light grey' is pretty much up to your own interpretation. It's certainly not something I have got, or would get, overly fussy about.

Jim W
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

Responding to the replies:

Jim Watt, Yes I appreciate the point you make regarding weathering and of course I also appreciate that in those far off days, colour control was hardly a science.

David John, I don't think that you did wander off the track. What you said was very much of interest.

ScottW, Thank you. That solves my "Archibald Russell" query. All that remains now is to find the "Waldie" wagon colour.
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

In order to try to answer my own question as to the colour of Waldie wagons, I submit the following:

Based on the black and white photograph on page 17 of Ed Mckenna’s article in Railway Archive No.34, a comparison of the shading of end sheeting on the wagons shown, suggests that the body colours of the Jas. Nimmo and Waldie wagons are similar/the same. The colours of these two are different from the A&R and Salmon & Young wagons which bear a close resemblance. Robbie’s Rolling Stock have their A&R and Salmon & Young wagons with red bodies. The same source has the body colour of the Jas. Nimmo wagon as grey. Ergo: Waldie wagons are grey.

According to the Scottish Railway Preservation Society at Bo’ness, James Nimmo & Company owned Kinneil Colliery (although this is not confirmed by Miles K.Oglethorpe). Bo’ness have their “Kinneil” wagon (re-painted ex Coal Board, original number unknown) in red oxide/bauxite and Bachmann have painted their Kinneil wagon model in the same colour. This might tend to suggest that Nimmo wagons were red oxide/bauxite.

However, the relative shades in the page 17 photograph would suggest otherwise. I therefore intend to paint my Waldie wagon in grey, with black shading. Does anyone disagree ?
emckeng
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:20 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by emckeng »

For some reason previous postings on this topic appear to have escaped my notice. I can confirm that post 1898, or thereabouts, Waldie wagons were painted grey. Not just any shade of grey mind you but, according to RYP's records, "Waldie Grey". Just what particular shade of grey that was is not particularly ( in fact not at all) clear. I have also seen Waldie grey described as "slate grey" and "dove grey". That suggests to me that there was a tinge of blue in it but given the weathering characteristics of paints I doubt if it matters very much. Jim Watt seems to have the most realistic approach to the subject.

James Nimmo & Co never owned Kinneil Colliery. It was owned post 1893 by the Kinneil Cannel & Coking Coal Co. Ltd. which became a subsidiary of the Lochgelly Coal & Iron Co Ltd in 1925. The over long corporate name of the Kinneil company probably explains why their wagons carried the single word "KINNEIL" which was retained even after the Lochgelly take over. James Nimmo & Co Ltd wagons were painted "brown oxide" which appears to have been a shade of paint known only to RYP.

I find it difficult to take seriously Robbie's Rolling Stock as an authoratative source. Much of what appears on his website is correct but there is also a fair number of "duds" and some that are pure flights of fancy. Caveat emptor.

Hope this helps.

Ed. McKenna
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

Dear Mr McKenna,

Thank you for your contribution. I much appreciate the solid information it provides. Unlike other sources, yours can be regarded as authoritative, because it is based on the study of original material.

When the average modeller – and even the above-average modeller – seeks an answer to a modelling query he doesn’t engage in “research” in anything like its purest form. He finds a written/published answer which he is then more than happy to accept. That answer may be wrong but he is unlikely to look further for an alternative. If challenged, he resorts to one of two answers. “Whose railway is it anyway”, or, “there’s an exception to everything”.

I did enjoy your article in Railway Archive no.34. It whets my appetite and that of others too, for your forthcoming book. As stated in my last post, the conclusion I reached was based on the admittedly notoriously difficult task of interpreting colours from a black & white photograph, supported, for good or ill, by Robbie. Yes, I am sure that Robbie can be wrong. I’ve also heard it said that Peter Matthews isn’t 100% accurate either. There is the other point that you make in relation to the light and dark coloured Polmaise wagons (photograph page 4), “which makes a nonsense of the idea of a uniform livery for each owner or colliery”. So, please press on with your book. I am sure it will be regarded as the definitive work on Scottish wagons.

Thanks again.

Douglas Teenan
peterbunce
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 10:57 am

Re: Wagon (lettering) Colours

Post by peterbunce »

Hi Ed,

Re 'Waldie' wagons - now the colour is known, what colour was the shading to the (white) lettering please - issue 34 of 'Railway Archive' shows a 'dark' colour which could be black or possibly red?

Yours Peter.
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

Peter,

In my experience, it is rare NOT to receive a reply to a question placed on the Forum but yours (until now) was in that unfortunate category, as is mine regarding the names of Scottish Private Owners of 7-Plank Fixed End Wagons (Parkside Dundas Kit PC73).

For what it is worth, when decorating my Waldie wagons, I didn't even think about red shading and went straight to black. This, for the very good and sufficient reason that these are readily available from HMRS.

Douglas Teenan
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

Peter,

Further to my last post, you might care to look at the undernoted eBay web-page:

https://www.ebay.ie/sch/sis.html?_itemI ... over&rt=nc

Whilst this doesn't show any of the wagons in colour, it is useful for livery layout - and there is a Waldie wagon shown. The photographs are probably the same ones that are available on the HMRS website, where they are much cheaper. From my perspective, they also indicate that the various Scottish Co-operative Societies were users of fixed end 7-plank wagons (Parkside PC73).

Douglas
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

I purchased some photographs from HMRS. My purpose was twofold, firstly, to find out which Private Owners operated fixed end side door wagons in Scotland and, secondly, to obtain livery layout details for these and other wagon types (although, sadly, not the body colours).
Most of the selected photographs were before 1923 and, thus an answer to my original question as to who would be likely to own and operate the RCH 1923 Parkside Dundas (now Peco) kit PC73, would require a shaky projection at best or a flight of fancy, but hey-ho, on we go.
Not unsurprisingly, the Co-operative Society using fixed end wagons were chief amongst the suppliers to the domestic coal market but another two turned up with fixed ends as well. Here is a list of the ones I found:
1. SCWS (branded in very large letters thus)
2. Paisley Underwood Co-operative Coal Society
3. Dumfries & Maxwelltown Co-operative Society
4. Glasgow Eastern Co-operative Society
5. Scottish Co-operative Wholesale Society
6. Lanark Provident Co-operative Society
7. Allan Lindsay (Partick).
8. Waldie
Can anyone put body colours to those above – and the side/end door wagons below ?
1. Hamilton Coal Company (Glasgow)
2. Hamilton Colliery Company (Larkhall)
3. Hamilton Palace Colliery (Bent Colliery Company Ltd)
4. The Shotts Iron Company (Loanhead & Roslin)
5. United (Bredisholm)
6. Robert Addie & Sons (Rosehall Colliery)
7. Robert & John Burns (St Rollox, Glasgow)
8. Larkhall Collieries (Shaws Colliery)
9. John Watson (Eddlewood Colliery)
10. Jas. Nimmo & Company (Canderrigg Colliery)
11. James Nimmo & Company (Slamannan)
12. Glasgow Iron & Steel (Wishaw)
13. Dechmont (Newton)
14. Kerr & Mitchell Collieries (Wishaw)
David Blevins
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by David Blevins »

WAGON COLOURS
First Batch 1 to 8
1. SCWS - Brown Oxide
2. Paisley Underwood - Dark Red Oxide or Brown Oxide
3. Dumfries & Maxwellton - Grey
4. Glasgow Eastern Co-op - "2 coats of Red Lead & 1 coat of Brown"
5. Scottish Co-op - Brown Oxide
6. Lanark Provident - Brown Oxide
7. Allan Lindsay (Partick) - Brown Oxide 1890 to 1908 then listed as Red Oxide in 1915.
8. Waldie - "Waldies Dark Slate"

second batch 1 to 14
1. Hamilton Coal Co (Glasgow) - Brown Oxide
2. Hamilton Colliery Co. (Larkhall) - Red Oxide
3. Hamilton Palace Colliery (Bent Coll) - Brown Oxide
4. The Shotts Iron Co. (Loanhead & Roslin) - Dark Red "Red Oxide with a little Brown in it"
5. United (Bredisholm & Newhouse Collieries) - Brown Oxide
6. Robert Addie & Sons (Rosehall Coll) - Blue, with Red side door, by 1914 it was now described as Slate Colour
7. Robert & John Burns (St Rollox) - Brown Oxide
8. Larkhall Colliery (Shaws Colliery) - Brown Oxide (Strathclyde) Colour
9. John Watson (Eddlewood Coll) - Slate
10. Jas. Nimmo & Co. (Canderrigg Coll) - Brown Oxide
11. Jas. Nimmo (Slamannan) - Brown Oxide
12. Glasgow & Iron & Steel Co. (Wishaw) - Brown Oxide
13. Dechmont (Newton) - Red Oxide (Woodfalls Liquid Paint)
14. Kerr & Mitchell Colliery (Wishaw) - Brown Oxide.

All of the above come from the RY Pickering & Co., Wagon Builders of Wishaw Records, which are kept in the Business Archives of Glasgow University which is also the "HOME" of the Caledonian Railway Archive belonging to our Caledonian Railway Association.

David Blevins.
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

David,
Please accept my grateful thanks for your comprehensive and very helpful reply. I am sure it will be of benefit to many other members.

Thank you also for the pointer towards the Pickering records in the Business Archives of Glasgow University. I can see me making an early visit there, for which I am sure an appointment will be necessary.

Douglas Teenan
David Blevins
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by David Blevins »

I probably should point out the fact that I Copied out the RY Pickering Order Book by hand away back in the 1970,s in a rather compressed fashion but tried to keep as much detail in my notes of each Order.
Since then I have copied the hand written notes to my Computer, but times have moved on and unfortunately my notes can not be searched for a particular Company.
The Order Book is listed by day month year but I did complete an Alphabetical List from these Records and particular companies can be found but again it was listed before "search engines" appeared. but the companies can be found if a little laborious but again "saved" to the Computer.
So all enquiries regarding the RY Pickering collection 1889 to 1924 are welcome and I will provide Information that I have recorded.

David Blevins.
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

In the period 1880 - 1923, RY Pickering must have painted several thousand Private Owner wagons in the colour known as "Brown Oxide".

For modelling purposes, which manufacturer's paint number do YOU think best depicts brown oxide in pristine, un-weathered condition ?

Douglas Teenan
Jim Summers
Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by Jim Summers »

Douglas,

In The True Line 53, page 33, Ronnie Cockburn, who has also studied a few builders' records in his time, wrote that for many years he had used Humbrol HR110. However this was withdrawn and he opened correspondence with Humbrol.

The firm recommended as a replacement 133 Satin Brown, pointing out that if a matt finish is required, then you can over-varnish with 49 Matt Varnish or use instead 113 Matt Rust or 180 Red Leather.
They went on to say that if you feel minor adjustments are necessary, then 107 Matt will blue the colour and 186 will yellow it.

David B. may have his own answer to your question, but I have normally followed the above recommendation and 113 does it for me.

JimS
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

Jim,

I could not have contemplated a more comprehensive reply.

Thank you.

Douglas
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

Rather than continue with my practice of painting the inside of wooden coal wagons as I imagined them to look, can anyone point me in the direction of actual photographs ?

Douglas T.
MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

Hello Douglas

A quick scan through David Blevins' notes from the Pickering order books shows that in the vast majority of cases no mention was made of internal painting. Those where it is specificed were usually tar, with a lesser number black paint. It seems reasonable to infer that the rest had no paint on the inside.

I dealt with what is known about CR mineral wagons on p.48 of the Wagon Book. Whether this specification, which dated from the early 1900s, codified existing pracitice is unknown. Earlier Pickering orders for CR mineral wagons do not mention any livery details.

Best

Mike
theparley
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2015 11:11 am

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by theparley »

Mike,

Thank you for your reply post. I realise now that my words were not as well chosen as I had thought.

I do appreciate (with the odd exception) that the insides of a mineral wagon were not painted by the manufacturer. What I wanted was photographs of the inside of a wooden bodied coal wagon after it had suffered wear, weathering and dirtying as a result of carrying its coal load. This, so that I could try (by painting) to replicate that appearance in my model wagons.

I hope that this post clarifies matters.

Douglas T
MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

Try pages 62 and 127 of the wagon book, Douglas. Plates 3.30 and 8.4

Best

Mike
David Blevins
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Re: Wagon Colours

Post by David Blevins »

Two photographs with partial views of interiors of CR Mineral Wagons near Motherwell Steelworks in Lanarkshire.
David Blevins.
Attachments
DB13D.jpg
DB13D.jpg (35.89 KiB) Viewed 2271 times
DB13E.jpg
DB13E.jpg (60.11 KiB) Viewed 2271 times
Post Reply