LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Any aspect related to the prototype stock.
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David Elvy
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LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by David Elvy »

Does anyone know if any of the LNWR/WCJS rolling stock absorbed by the Caley was operated on C&O metals and if their was which items?


Regards


David
Keith Fenwick
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by Keith Fenwick »

I suspect that the only way you can find that out is from photographs. However, WCJS stock did operate to Oban on the through sleeper rom London. In summer 1914 this ran on the 8pm from Euston and the 6.45 from Oan.
Keith
Jim Summers
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by Jim Summers »

Keith mentioned the WCJS sleeper to Oban.
I have done a bit of research on this, and have made (but not yet finished) a model in 4mm scale. These were curious animals, known as thick and thin, I believe. One half was 9 foot wide, and looked like a WCJS ornate sleeper. The other half was thinner and looked like an ordinary LNWR compartment coach. Of course they were smaller than the usual WCJS whose 6-wheel bogies were banned on the C&O.

I have a few photos and details, if anyone is interested.

Jim S
RossB
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by RossB »

Would have thought that most ex-wcjs designs would have eventually made it to most parts of the system. If you haven't already, take a look at 'A Register of West Coast Joint Stock' by Casserley and Millard. It has detailed lists of all stock absorbed by the CR.

Jim, you're sleeper model sounds very interesting.
Dave Lochrie
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by Dave Lochrie »

I enclose some low-res LNWR postcard images of WCJS vehicles operating to Oban. (this should encourage Jim to post better photos of this odd and elusive vehicle)
WCJS Composite Sleeping Saloon .jpg
WCJS Composite Sleeping Saloon .jpg (80.2 KiB) Viewed 14584 times
WCJS 65ft Sleeping Saloon.jpg
WCJS 65ft Sleeping Saloon.jpg (117.35 KiB) Viewed 14584 times
I also have read that 65' stock was not permitted over the C&O but the July 1913 Marshalling of Trains, WCJS Section shows
8.5pm ex-Euston composed of Sleeping Composite Brake (the D41 mentioned by Jim) plus a Composite, 3rd Class and Pass Break Van on Monday- Friday
(return working 6.45pm ex Oban)
But on Sundays only (couldn't see what happened on Saturdays) this portion and its balancing return is shown as worked by a Break Composite and a 65' Sleeping Saloon.
That gives the basic format of summer WCJS on the C&O pre-WW1 with the addition of vans.
I think this 1913 shot of No52 leaving Oban (with what looks to be a Bain designed M& G&SW Jnt carriage behind) shows a WCJS D5 Sleeping Saloon (on the extreme left, sat in what is the Ballachulish bay with a pair of CR 50' carriages.
CR No52, Oban 1913.jpg
CR No52, Oban 1913.jpg (507.08 KiB) Viewed 14584 times
David Elvy
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by David Elvy »

Dave,

Any chance of a higher resolution copy of the final photo of Oban but centralising on the signal, thanks.


Regards

David
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

This is scanned from West Coast Joint Stock. As any fule kno, the station is Balquhidder
Attachments
WCJS at Bal.JPG
WCJS at Bal.JPG (89.08 KiB) Viewed 14561 times
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

This picture was in True Line 109. It shows a WCJS Diagram 41 50ft brake composite as the front coach. Although I haven't seen them in photographs LNWR Diagram 216 brake composites would also be good candidates as many were dual brake fitted.
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C&O train.jpg
C&O train.jpg (26.77 KiB) Viewed 14561 times
John Paton
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by John Paton »

Hi David,

Is this one hiding at Ballachulish? Please excuse my ignorance if this is not the case.

John Paton
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Ballachulish056.jpg
Ballachulish056.jpg (110.17 KiB) Viewed 14528 times
MIKEWILLIAMS
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS »

Yes its a WCJS D.13 family saloon, built 1899-1901. There were 20 in total, numbers 353 - 372.
Dave Lochrie
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by Dave Lochrie »

David,
Sorry that is the best I can get, the signal post is fairly over-exposed on the original (not to mention being half-hidden behind the telegraph pole). I'll send you an email with several later shots of the same signal Oban Platform 3 & 4 starters -Nos 52 & 60 in the 1904 re-signalling plan, which I won't post as I'm not sure of the copyright situation for one of them (I always feel on safer ground with pre-group shots)
John,
You have provided the best photo yet of the standard Callander & Oban platform barrow, which appears somewhere in most C&O station shots as well as in shots of Dunblane and Stirling and Lochearnhead , but so far nowhere else! Most shots appear to show handles at both ends, which must have made for a cumbersome beast to manouvre. I suspect they were intended for 2 man operation, though the unusual design suggests it's intention was originally to provide a stable loading base to load vans from low platforms, any other ideas?

Dave
Jim Summers
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by Jim Summers »

David asked for a higher res copy of the signal in Dave's picture.

This might do - it has been very heavily cropped and I trust the original photographer would not mind, since it was clearly the train which interested him.

I am aware I am still supposed to post some more on the composite sleeper, and will get round to something, but meantime folk might care to know that there is a drawing in Jenkinson's book on LNWR Carriages, which of course it would be wrong to post here.

Jim
Oban Signal detail 1948.jpg
Oban Signal detail 1948.jpg (31.72 KiB) Viewed 14451 times
Jim Summers
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by Jim Summers »

Peter Bunce watches our Forum, but is not a member and so cannot post messages. Nevertheless, he thanks us for making it available to non CRA members, as he finds it very interesting and is particularly grateful for the photos.

Anent which he asks me to pass on the following information:

CR 52 has behind it not a M&GSW vehicle, but something much more interesting.

It is in fact a Family Saloon to Midland Railway Diagram 542 of 1908-9, numbers 2871/84.8/9/92/2900/34/67, being 50 foot long.
There is a diagram of them in R.E. Lacy (book 2) on Midland Carriages (P344), and now you have found a photo of them - it was said that none existed.

The WCJS composite sleeping carriages have two versions, the first with the clerestory, the second with the elliptical roof and both different; they are described in D Jenkinson's book (P41)on LNW carriages with a drawing of the second series, and the differences are explained. The first series were built between 1905 and 1908.


So thanks to our observer.

Jim S.
David Elvy
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by David Elvy »

Does any one have details for or know of any LNWR 32ft 6 wheel composites which ended up with the Caley, the WCJS book doesn't give much visual information about these coaches.

thanks


David
Graham Tipple
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by Graham Tipple »

When the WCJS stock was absorbed into the CR system, was it painted in CR livery or how did it differ?
Steve Parsons
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by Steve Parsons »

Graham here's a handy book well worth getting and its not a lot of money and should answer some of your questions

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Register-West- ... oint+stock

Steve
peterbunce
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Re: LNWR/WCJS Coaches on the C&O

Post by peterbunce »

Graham Tipple wrote:When the WCJS stock was absorbed into the CR system, was it painted in CR livery or how did it differ?
Hi, WCJS was basically LNWR colours, which were slightly darker in the lower panels than than the CR so other than perhaps gaining CR crests I would not expect any more painting provided that the finish was in good order when it was transferred.

Naturally any vehicles would be renumbered.

Yours Peter.
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