Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

To assist modellers plan and build a Caledonian Railway layout with the appropriate stock. A list/catalogue of supplies and components is available to members in the Association Resources section of the Forum below.
Coronach
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Coronach » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:25 am

Gents.

Having just completed (after a lengthy struggle!) an old DJH Jumbo kit, the possibility has been raised of one of our experienced etchers and kit producers making a new kit for the Jumbo.
It is a tentative proposal at the moment but it's likely a run of 20-30 will be required to make the project viable.
If you would be interested, please indicate your interest via PM or via my blog (www.maxstaffordskennel.com).

Thanks.

Dave.

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 pm

There is one already, Dave - go to worsleyworks.co.uk. It costs £60 etchings only. I think this was an initiative of Dave Lochrie a few years ago.

Best

Mike

lindsay_g
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by lindsay_g » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:44 pm

This isn't sent as a PM as others might ask the same sort of question.

The type being modelled might have an effect. Perhaps it's too early in the thinking process as yet but, for example, would the tender be the earliest type with underslung springs, would the engine be a Drummond/Smellie with valve on the dome or Lambie/MacIntosh with separate safety valve, or might the kit cater for most variations?

Pity this initiative hadn't come along earlier as I've recently acquired a Worsley Works etch which will take a lot of work to complete.

Lindsay

John Lindsay
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by John Lindsay » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:30 pm

Having built a DJH Jumbo, I agree that it has a few issues, notably the position and size of the cab front windows. it's also not the easiest kit to build. As I need to build another jumbo, I have invested in the Worsley Works etches and plan to combine those with a second DJH kit. It will be a little while before I get the chance to see how it all works.

I can confirm that the Worsley Works tender is the old one with underslung springs. I got the castings from a chap in Ironbridge.

John

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Dave Lochrie » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:58 pm

Certainly if there is one thing Caledonian modellers need is a good kit for a Jumbo and whilst the DJH kit is still available and good value for money, it is certainly not up to current standards. It's existence did mean that Jim Smellie http://www.caley.com/ felt that there would not be enough market for another (even if infinitely better) Jumbo kit.
The Worsley Works Jumbo which is available in both Drummond and Lambie/McIntosh versions (essentially a choice of tenders as the boiler is not included) as well as in 2mm and 3mm http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_L ... s_Caly.htm, falls well short of being a kit, and in fairness such parts are sold as scatchbuilding aids, will only appeal to a limited number of people and at £60 is pricey. I can see the attraction of John's combi version of Worsley etchings combined with boiler and castings from DJH. This will make for an expensive outlay (certainly in excess of the current list price of Jim's "812") and still in need of a fair bit of work.
When the etchings were first produced Tony B arranged a set of castings from the long defunct Jamieson Jumbo kit, and I'm sure he still has some spare sets, if you PM him.
There is still a small market for one good contemporary kit and I supose I will put myself down for one, although thanks to Tony I already have boilers rolled for both versions and one part finished chassis as well as some Dave Franks' exquisitely turned boiler mountings.

Dave L

Coronach
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Coronach » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:41 am

Gents, it looks like Alastair will produce the etches and Dave Franks is going to provide the necessary castings so I'd say this one now has sufficient interest to be a 'go-er'.
There is also a tentative suggestion of a Pickersgill 4-4-0 to follow but that one is just being talked about so far.

Dave.

Coronach
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Coronach » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:39 am

Folks. I'm currently trying to ascertain actual numbers for this project so if you are interested in purchasing one or more of this kit please send an email headed 'Jumbo' to [email protected], indicating what quantity of the kit you require.

Many thanks.

Dave.

Coronach
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Coronach » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:20 pm

Gents.
Some of you may already have become aware of Alastair Wright's probable withdrawal from this project. Other options are now under evaluation so it is not the end of the project by any means. Please bear with us whilst we carry out the additional necessary groundwork for this. I can advise that discussions regarding specification and alternative etching options are taking place and when I have more information I'll make sure you are made aware.

Regards.

Dave Smith.

Facilitator, Jumbo Project.

Coronach
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Coronach » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:25 pm

Folks.

The intention is indeed to proceed with the project, however there is a great deal of work to be done with regards to developing the concept and specification of the kit to enable a broad range of options in terms of technical configuration and period range. The hope is that we will be able to factor the various gauge, suspension and drive options into the basic package. That naturally is going to require a great deal of research and consideration however which takes time. However, if we are going to do this it's important it be done thoroughly. It's new ground for some of us but it's going to be an interesting journey and at the end of it there WILL be a 21st Century Jumbo kit.

For those of you interested, I will update http://www.maxstaffordskennel.com with information as it becomes available , so please follow the blog and you'll get a notification each time there's a development.

Thanks.

Dave.

Facilitator, Jumbo Project.

Coronach
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:41 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Coronach » Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:01 pm

Pete Stanger of 52F models has proposed a new kit of the Jumbo but requires at least fifteen expressions of interest to make the project viable.
Anyone who has seen one of Pete's NB/NE will know the standard and good design to be expected.
It's anticipated that a deposit of £25 will be required.
In the first instance, Pete has requested that anyone with an interest should contact home by email via the 52F Models website, indicating the quantity of kits you desire and your preferred gauge.
Based on past experience, Pete's kits come in around the £100 mark and are optimised for EM/P4 though he often produces 00 versions where sufficient interest exists.

Dave.

David Thorpe
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:58 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by David Thorpe » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:09 pm

Thanks. Done.

David

iainkirk
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:56 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by iainkirk » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:43 am

Done... Done... Done...
May we have the clarity to see our work, the courage to embrace it, and the capacity to discharge it.
Robert Fripp

tony brenchley
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by tony brenchley » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:57 pm

To confirm Dave Lochrie's earlier posting I still have a few sets of castings to go with the Worsley Works etches. These are unashamedly plagiarised from the castings that were included with the Jamieson Jumbo kit of many decades ago. The only down side is that I only copied one of the tender underframe castings with the intention of removing the axleboxes and springs to use with the etched WW frames.` If you want a set please contact me by PM. I think I charged £8 for the set to cover the cost of making the mould.

I have some 4mm Jumbo tender axlebox and spring castings that are infinitely better and came from a pattern made by Peter James in the 1970s. I think they were probably produced by Sprat and Winkle Line Models but never sold commercially. At around this time Derek Munday of S&W was persuaded by Peter to produce the original kit for the Caley 4-wheeled horsebox. Peter provided copies of the Caley drawings for the etching artwork and also made the patterns for the castings in this kit. The kit has passed through a number of manufacturers' hands. Who makes it now? It is also worth recording that Peter made the original pattern for the 8' CR carriage bogies that were produced for the Caledonian Consortium, maybe were once sold by the CRA and were copied by John Boyle to use with his 4mm kits.

Despite making enquiries with the appropriate people I have not been able to discover the whereabouts of the original pattern for the tender axlebox castings but what I have are probably good enough to copy.` I also have a couple of sets of the original castings for the horsebox including the double trumpet ventilator. Again these are good enough to copy if anybody is interested. I had always planned to try resin casting from these parts as I don't think the demand will be great enough to justify the cost of a mould for white metal casting. Where's my Round To-it?

Tony B

Jim Summers
Posts: 842
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Jim Summers » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:02 pm

Tony asked who produces the double horse box nowadays. The answer is David Geen.

Jim S

dumb buffer
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by dumb buffer » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:11 am

As you rightly say, David Geen produces the 6 wheel double horsebox. The one I have has "Microrail" under it. I think Tony is asking about the 4 wheel single horsebox which is produced by London Road Models. On mine the underside of the floor bears the inscription CHB4 and D Mundy. Both kits have castings for the double trumpet ventilator, tho' the 6 wheel one is a good deal fatter than the four wheel one. I've a vague feeling there's a drawing in the Archive for the ventilator. Sometime I'll finish one of them.....

Allan F

Jim Summers
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Jim Summers » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:36 am

Allan is right, of course. I was just too quick with my response, largely because a six-wheel one is uppermost on my mind. This is because one is on the workbench at this very moment awaiting a coat of matt varnish. An enjoyable kit.

Jim S

MIKEWILLIAMS
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:12 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by MIKEWILLIAMS » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:17 pm

Drawing of the double ventilator is on p. 318 of the wagon book

Best

Mike

dumb buffer
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by dumb buffer » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:05 pm

That'll be where I saw it, then, unless, of course, you got it from the Archive.

Allan F

tony brenchley
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by tony brenchley » Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:15 pm

As a further contribution to this thread which has moved far away from Jumbos (but that is the delight of the Forum) I have attached a scan of the box of the original issue of the Sprat and Winkle Line Horse Box Kit. I bet you would like to get this for £9.50 now! For those in the north the Sprat and Winkle Line was a nickname given to a L&SWR branch in Hampshire which I think is the one that is now the home of the Mid Hants Railway and publicised by them as the Watercress Line.
S&W Horse Box001.pdf
(357.21 KiB) Downloaded 820 times
Tony B

Alan K
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Alan K » Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:54 pm

Back to the Jumbo, I've had some feedback on progress from Peter Stanger. He seems to have made good progress with research and spec-ing out what would be required. Campbell Cornwell's book has not surprisingly got him off to a flying start! At this stage, it looks like he would be able to cover both Drummond/Smellie and Lambie/McIntosh boilers, and all 3 designed tenders (as opposed to those which were acquired at various stages from withdrawn engine classes - these might be a future possibility given sufficient demand).
I find it frustrating that the Jumbo book doesn't utilize Duncan Burton's terminology for tender types (which is given in Essery & Jenkinson's LMS Locos Vol 3), but the tenders which would be covered would be D1 (the original Stroudley type with underhung springs), D4 (the 1889 2500 gallon type) and L2 (the 1893 2800 gallon Lambie/ McIntosh type).
One problem : the Jumbo book has drawings galore for most of the items, but there is no drawing for the L2 tender: is there such an item in the CRA archives or elsewhere that could be supplied?

So at this stage, Gents, it looks like a 2015 event for which financial provision needs to be made!

Alan

David Thorpe
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:58 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by David Thorpe » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:27 am

Thanks Alan, that's excellent news.

David

David Thorpe
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:58 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by David Thorpe » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:57 pm

I've heard further from Pete Stanger about this kit. I'm pleased to say that it's definitely going to be produced and Pete hopes to start work on it in May.

The variations on the loco will be covered by supplying two boilers, one Drummond and one Lambie and by using the later McIntosh frames that most if not all received eventually. There will be 3 domes and 3 chimneys including the (awful) Midland stovepipe and a couple of smokebox doors, one original and one Midland type. The tenders will be a choice of the Drummond 2,500g and the Lambie 2,800g tender (Y36). These two tenders will cover about 75% of the Jumbos. Tender choice will of course be an "either or", not both!

For the chassis, Pete will be using a design that has been proven and refined over 10 years and works in OO, EM and P4 so anyone is looking for a CSB arrangement then they'll need to look elsewhere! If you've never built one of Pete's kits then you won't have seen anything like it before. There's no need to use an Avonside frame jig to assemble the chassis because the design is of the "fold up" type and all that's needed is a steel rule or a straight edge to fold the chassis around. The compensation for the middle and rear drivers is a unit that incorporates the gearbox and the motor mount for a vertically mounted Mashima motor. This puts the motor inside the firebox and doesn't interfere with any daylight that would be visible under the boiler. The leading drivers are mounted in a pair of pre-assembled hornblock units and the ride height is controlled via a cross beam with a 12BA set screw and captive nut. The axle bushes are a light press fit into the gearbox/compensation unit allowing the unit to be withdrawn after their removal and the removal of the 2-12BA setscrews that the unit pivots around.

Pete suggest that interested parties should visit his website (http://52fmodels.sharepoint.com/Pages/default.aspx) and have a look at his NBR pages to get some idea of what they may be
letting themselves in for. I've never built one of his kits but i know someone who has and he thinks they're the bees knees, so i'm really looking forward to tackling this one when it comes out.

DT

jasp
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by jasp » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:00 pm

Excellent news
Jim P

tony brenchley
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by tony brenchley » Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:49 am

All sounds good to me too.

Tony B

Alan K
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:41 pm

Re: Potential new 4mm Jumbo kit?

Post by Alan K » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:06 pm

Just to elaborate a little more on David Thorpe's post, the tender option which Peter Stanger is now offering is either the original Drummond Stroudley type with the underhung springs (which Duncan Burton classified as D1), or the 2800gall Lambie Y36 type (D.B's Type L2). He will not be offering the later Drummond 2500gall Y23 tender (aka D4), which is the other Jumbo-designed tender, as I originally reported. He's reluctant to incur the expense of additional tender etches which may sit on the shelf unsold, although he is prepared to consider if there is sufficient demand.
Personally, I would be happy with the Lambie tender, as it appears to be the most common. In Essery & Jenkinson's 'LMS Locomotives', there is a summary of LMS livery codes for individual Jumbos which also includes tender type. I did a quick count of the tender types and removed duplicates (ie the same engine/tender appearing twice with different livery codes). Of the 150 engines given, 64 had Lambie tenders, 37 had Drummond D4/Y23, and 27 had the original Drummond D1. The remainder had later MacIntosh tenders.
Do any of the potential buyers have any strong views on tender type? Would there be any demand for a separate tender etch? Jim Smellie sells his tenders as separate items, but I'm not sure if he gets orders for tenders only (eg from those folks who want to have a different tender for an existing engine)

Alan

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