Proposed wagon transfers

To assist modellers plan and build a Caledonian Railway layout with the appropriate stock. A list/catalogue of supplies and components is available to members in the Association Resources section of the Forum below.
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Dave John
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Proposed wagon transfers

Post by Dave John » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:05 pm

Jim (Jasp) has asked me to revisit transfers with a view to going to a manufacturer and getting some proper white waterslides made.

So I had a look at my old ones, and realised that they were just not right. I had used fonts which were close but not close enough and the whole thing was ok for home printing but not much else.

I therefore started from scratch and created true scaleable objects, they resize linearly and the C R is generated directly from the drawings in mikes book, broken down the letters were formed from basic shapes.

The master version is in affinity so that a every element is a separate layer. It is therefore straightforward to create a transfer sheet with whatever folk want on it. That can be exported to virtually any other file format to suit a manufacturer. It does create large files though so to get things going I have made up a first proposal. Lots of Cs and Rs, a variety of tonnages, and numbers with .s for tares.

Wagon numbers are a first guess, but its always bound to be a limited selection. Same goes for wagon descriptions.

This is a jpeg of a sheet I have knocked up as a starter. Bear in mind it is lower resolution than the master to get it on here, and really should be viewed as a discussion document to get things moving. Hence the gap at the bottom for future development. It might not size perfectly on other comps, so that 1 foot reference square is the defining element.

The key question is how big should the transfer sheet be? The bigger they are the more they cost so the issue is how much can be put on a reasonable sized sheet?
CR wagon tx b.jpg
CR wagon tx b.jpg (91.64 KiB) Viewed 24909 times
All comments welcome, any tips for how to do this stuff gratefully accepted.

Dave John
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by Dave John » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:23 pm

As a pdf
CR wagon tx b.pdf
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jimwatt2mm
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by jimwatt2mm » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:56 pm

I have photos of Dia 22's lettered 'HAMILTON SECTION', 'LESMAHAGOW SECTION' and 'CARFIN & CLELAND SECTION' and perhaps 'LOCO' for Dia 21's would be useful? Having said that, even if they were available in 2mm scale I would be unlikely to use them as the contrast between neat transfer letters and my rather crude hand painted ones would be rather great! :(

Jim W

lindsay_g
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by lindsay_g » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:27 am

Very interesting and thought provoking, Dave.

Getting transfers printed has also been at the back of my mind but I haven't got round to doing anything about it really other than some Googling and some thoughts of my needs if I did get moving...........

When trawling the web I came across a website precisionlabels.com who seemingly do a full A4 page of custom transfers in white for £25, their custom page can be found here. Whilst the initial reaction might be a sharp intake of breath at that cost, for that I was envisaging that the A4 sheet would be crammed full of words and numbers such that it would satisfy me for many years ahead or a sheet could contain 2 or 4 sets of each so that it could be cut into half or a quarter (another facet to True Line Models?). A couple of thoughts regarding that approach :
- I've not really sat down to consider the format that Precision Labels can accept custom requests in, but from reading of their website, might this current initiative be presented in a format that Precision Labels can accept?
- I've no experience of this website, and was pondering a post to a Forum or 2. Has anyone on this Forum had experience of them?

As to what I was envisaging might be on a sheet that I would be after, but most might satisfy many others (excepting the first item!) :
- I've got a few items that are perhaps rather unique to me, certainly not items for a wide audience (e.g. "Edinburgh Goods", "Steam Crane Brake Van", 3 or 4 (fictitious) names of guards to add to brake vans). "Edinburgh When Empty" might prove popular with a few for Cask Vans
- A big selection of wagon numbers (2 or 4 of each) plus possibly rows of numbers 1-0 for adapting other numbers/creating new numbers. Possibly some "C.R.xxxx" type combinations for solebars on older wagons
- A selection of tare weights that would be typical for wagons in the fleet in format "4.15.0" which can then be cut down to tons and cwt as required
- A selection of Load capacities
- LOCO COAL ONLY would be needed for 10T wagons (I've built 3 so far). Could the same size of lettering fit other loco coal wagons using just the first, or first and second words only?
- Perhaps a few CR's and square dots (square dots?) would be useful unless these can be sourced elsewhere!

All encouragement from me regarding progress,

Lindsay

RossB
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by RossB » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:22 am

I have a number of transfer masters which came with the exhibition sales stock via Jim. They are A3 size with the individual numbers and letters cut out and stuck on and cover CR, SNER, SCR, traders wagons plus a few other bits. I not sure who made them or if they were ever made into transfers but they may be useful for a future project. I'll take some pictures of them tonight.

Ross

tony brenchley
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by tony brenchley » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:52 pm

Dave, Lindsay

This is looking very good.

I have no expertise to comment on the content other than so flog through a lot of photos. Wagon numbers are always going to be a problem. I am sure Ronnie Cockburn did some analysis on wagon numbers a few years ago which might tell us whether we need more 7s and 4s for example than 3s. Do we have access to this?

Frankly anything is a move forward and I would be very pleased to be able to add them to the TLM range.

Tony B

RossB
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by RossB » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:29 pm

Here are the masters I have. There are 21 in all covering just about all CR wagons plus many others.
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RossB
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by RossB » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:31 pm

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RossB
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by RossB » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:32 pm

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RossB
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by RossB » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:34 pm

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RossB
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:53 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by RossB » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:35 pm

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jim mac
Posts: 636
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:20 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by jim mac » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:37 am

Ross
These are clearly the masters for the transfers produced by Ronnie Cockburn, note the BWW in bottom r/h corner, I used them in 7mm. Your photos suggest a very comprehensive cover of potential requirements and they would seem to be a very good basis for creating an additional offering for TLM.

The wagon number record generated by Ronnie, mentioned earlier in this topic by Tony, is available. It is a huge file, 3 inches thick if printed out. Mike Williams has suggested that there are some details in need of checking and Lindsay Galloway has recently reviewed the file.

Given the effort that Ronnie put into generating the list it would be nice to see it being put to good use. Suggestions welcome.

jim mac

jasp
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by jasp » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:31 pm

What Ross has are not masters but paper copies.
I passed these sheets to Ross and the reason I did nothing with them was that transfer makers require digital masters ...... unless someone can digitise the copies that Ross has. If not, it would be a pity not to be able to use the results of Ronnie's considerable efforts.
I also recall that the "C R"s are incorrect.
The reason I contacted Dave John was because he had produced some transfers for his own use and I hoped we could make use of his work in a modified form.
Jim P

Dave John
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by Dave John » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:53 pm

Ok, I have read up a bit on what the transfer makers want. They clearly want an A4 sheet with suitable margins . So for a first go I will have a go at designing a A5 based sheet which would print at 2 per A4 page.

Those sheets Ross has are an amazing collection, but at A3 they were designed for a photographic process. If however they could be scanned they would be fantastic archive documents on which future digital masters could be based.

I will have a go and see how they turn out.

lindsay_g
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by lindsay_g » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:12 pm

I will ask on the Scalefour Society's Forum whether anyone has had experience of using Precision Labels or any other transfer makers.

Lindsay

jasp
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by jasp » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:44 pm

It should be noted that the rights to these copies, and the originals, do not belong to the CRA, but to the originator, one of our members.
The situation re transfers will be discussed at the next Committee meeting.
Jim P

lindsay_g
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by lindsay_g » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:58 pm

I've started a thread on the S4 Forum which can be viewed here. Nothing of note so far but it was only posted last night.

Is anyone a member of RMweb, or any other forum where a similar thread could be started?

Lindsay

jimwatt2mm
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by jimwatt2mm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:06 pm

Back in December I posted a message in the TLM thread http://www.crassoc.org.uk/forum/viewtop ... f=17&t=850 following messages I'd exchanged on RMWeb with Steve of Railtec. He seemed keen to improve the offering he has of CR wagon transfers. Might it be worth getting in touch with him?

Jim W

lindsay_g
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by lindsay_g » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:03 am

Railtec certainly shouldn't be excluded as an option without finding out just what they might be able to supply and at what price.

However, the sizes of sheets supplied by Railtec look pretty small. Their website doesn't specify the size of any sheet (and size seems to vary from one sheet to another) but, working from the scale size of letter heights, what you see on screen (before going into the enlarged mode) is not far off actual size. So, their present Caley sheet would appear to be half the width of an A4 sheet and an eighth of the height - if so, that works out at £88 for an A4 sheet going by the list price on the website. This begins to make the Precision Labels option look an absolute steal (but how's their reliability/turnaround/quality?). Can anyone confirm the size of the present Railtec Caley sheet?

The usefulness of the present CR sheet has already been questioned (by Douglas) and when you study it for a few minutes you can see that it really hasn't been thought through at all (esp the balance between "CR"s and the rest) or with much knowledge of Caley practice (only 2 of each wagon number). The trouble with supplying such a small sheet will lie in the lack of flexibility to meet individual needs as you can only fit so many wagon numbers, tare and load weights, etc., onto such a limited space. The price tag for such a small sheet might seem more attractive than paying for one 2 or 4 times the size, but it could well be the case that one has to buy several just to meet individual need with a lot left over that will never be used, whereas a larger sheet would offer more variety and a better balance and therefore be a far more cost effective option.

Taking all factors into account it might seem that this is a minefield, that we're just opening up a can of worms with little chance of getting anything that will meet the needs of many. However, if life was straightforward it would be boring and we'd all be brain dead. I reckon that this can be thought through and we can come up with something that meets the needs of a good percentage of interested parties. If it doesn't meet the needs of some individuals (like my rather unique wants) it can perhaps establish a route for them satisfying their need. That's the sort of benefit to be gained from groups such as the CRA.

Count me in to help solve this conundrum, cheers,

Lindsay

Dave John
Posts: 200
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by Dave John » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:33 pm

OK, so this is a second go. It is designed to A5. If I have got my sums right it would be possible to print two per A4 sheet with the margins suggested by the transfer makers, then halve the whole sheet. The jpg and PDF formats are not terribly clear, the full eps file is. I could upload in other formats if needed.

It should give a good selection of the basics.
CR wagon TX sheet 1 working copy.jpg
CR wagon TX sheet 1 working copy.jpg (290.94 KiB) Viewed 24634 times
There is some space left in the middle, so suggestions for wagon numbers or text that would suit are welcome. Also have a close look and check I have got things right, easy to correct at this stage.
CR wagon TX sheet 1 working copy.pdf
(366.41 KiB) Downloaded 607 times

lindsay_g
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by lindsay_g » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:58 am

Good to see progress, Dave.

I’m afraid I’m in the middle of a fairly intensive break so don’t have the time to sit down and consider things presently. I’ve also only got access via an iPhone so seeing things is not easy and replying worse (have lost one reply already) so if you can bear with me for a few days, I’ll get a response off as soon as possible.

Cheers,

Lindsay

Dave Lochrie
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by Dave Lochrie » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:28 am

Dave,
Looking better and better, thanks for persevering.
Although Lindsay said you would probably never satisfy everyone's needs, I think the big (A5) sheet approach is more likely to deliver. If I look at your latest layout against wagons on the workbench, drawer or even still in my head, this delivers 99%. I don't mind having to improvise to fill a gap or two, I'm still going to be able to finish them sooner.
I had heard of the existence of Ronnie's sheets way back so its great to see the breadth of his work. Leaving aside Trader wagons -which we could revisit in the future (post book ideally) the only gap in the latest sheet I would struggle to fill would be the warning notices on the gunpowder vans, and I don't really need one myself -point size for these in 4mm must come out a fraction of a point anyway.
Its hard to judge cost but there is little point in investing in the cost of True Line Models or scratch building and not finishing them to an equally high standard.
Waterslide had a bed rep amongst railway modellers for a long time so we've had methfix, press fix and rub down. Meanwhile, globally, most other fine scale modellers whether aircraft or military have stuck (sorry only spotted that on re-reading) with waterslide decals, refined the technology and the use of softeners etc to a degree where nothing else really competes. This is probably why the current ranges for railway modellers such as Fox and Railtech also use waterside.
So an enthusiastic "I'm in" as they say on Dragons Den.

Dave L

David Elvy
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Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by David Elvy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:19 pm

Thanks to all who have progressed the transfers to their present stage, I have been in touch with David who has drafted the file and believe things will be discussed the coming weekend at the AGM.
Unfortunately I can't make it to the AGM this year, my own fault I forgot to record the date and something else was planned on my behalf.

Being completely scale selfish, can I ask what is planned for those of us who model in 7mm scale regards the transfers?

Thanks David

lindsay_g
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Proposed wagon transfers

Post by lindsay_g » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:05 am

The committee were starting to take this on board towards the first quarter of the year. Are there any developments or progress that can be reported?

Cheers,

Lindsay

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