Another "where is this" query

The day to day working of the Caledonian Railway Company, including its constituents and successors.
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Graham R
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:44 am

Another "where is this" query

Post by Graham R »

A well-known auction site currently offers a glass negative of an early Caley 4-4-0 in sparkling condition on a train of eight 6-wheelers at an unfamiliar (to me) location, a main line in a curved cutting with a branch line to one side and signals with wooden posts, possibly slotted (there appear to be no spectacle plates on the arms). The cut hay stooked on the cutting side is a nice detail for modellers.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/362777040051

Could it possibly be on the Scottish Central section? Can anyone suggest where it is?

regards
Graham Roberts
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 685
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Can't help with the location, Graham, but I think that is a loop or refuge to the right. The track looks too uneven to be anything else. I would suggest the top arm on the signal on the right is a repeater for the one on the left, for better sighting on the curve, and the lower arm for exit from the loop/refuge. The loco is a rebuilt 'Dundee Bogie', so it could be somewhere in the Perth/Dundee area

BTW, on the link, the photo second from the left above this photo is not Caledonian, but Highland. Note the louvred chimney.

Jim W
caley739
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:59 am

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by caley739 »

Jim
As a regular browser and occasional buyer of railway/train photos on the site, I would say such misdescriptions are fairly commonplace. It depends on the seller. Some have good prototype knowledge, but others seem to have virtually none. Also anything written on the back can vary from spoton to absolute rubbish.

Tom
dunalastairv
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by dunalastairv »

I too have been looking at this picture with much interest: if you look carefully at the background there's a flat but high ridge on the horizon. Would that make it more familiar to anyone? The ancient wooden signals are a delight...
Bill_Gensheet
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by Bill_Gensheet »

How about Crieff Jn (now Gleneagles)

A possibly matching shot from this year with the high ridge seen beyond the overbridge

Main lines at Crieff Jn were more like the Gleneagles branch platform alignment, the 'new' main lines being moved slightly south making for a tighter curve

Bill
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jimwatt2mm
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Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by jimwatt2mm »

The bridge and the outline of the hills in the background certainly look a good match. The platform in the left foreground indicates too that it is on the approach to a station.

Jim W
dunalastairv
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by dunalastairv »

I think somewhere I've seen an old track plan for Crieff Junction as was - in the Strathearn book perhaps? When I get home I'll check but I reckon Crieff Junction is a very likely guess.
John Duffy
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Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by John Duffy »

My first instinct was Gleneagles. The earlier layout at Crieff Jcn had the cross over directly under the bridge, where the later arrangement was nearer the platform. An early date would account for there being no pointwork under the engine. The only thing that does not match the early mapping from NLS is the signal posts arrangement, however that may be either a map accuracy issue or simply the posts were once in a different position.

John
Graham R
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Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:44 am

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by Graham R »

Thanks everyone. I am happy with your suggestions of Crieff Junction before the branch connection was made with a double junction, and indeed the point rodding for the trailing crossover under the bridge can be seen in the photo. (But there are no rods for the facing point locks and, if dated to late 1880s, seems a bit early for economical locks. Hmmm.)

The photographer was clearly experienced enough not to let the train get too close and risk speed blur spoiling his shot. I wonder if the original is clear enough to read the engine number?

Regards
Graham
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 685
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Only one way to find out, Graham! :D

Jim W
Bill_Gensheet
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by Bill_Gensheet »

Graham R wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:01 am
Thanks everyone. I am happy with your suggestions of Crieff Junction before the branch connection was made with a double junction, and indeed the point rodding for the trailing crossover under the bridge can be seen in the photo. (But there are no rods for the facing point locks and, if dated to late 1880s, seems a bit early for economical locks. Hmmm.)
Would you expect all the rodding to be on this side of the line ?
If it is only the crossover rodding the photographers' side, then that was a trailing point and would not need a lock.
The donw to branch is the only facing point and could have been operated by a rodding run on the down side. That may well not be visible above the branch rails.

Bill
Graham R
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:44 am

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by Graham R »

Thanks Bill. That would make sense.

As for Jim’s tease that I could always put my money where my mouth is (he kens me ower weel!), since the bidding is at £49 with 5 days yet to go, I’ll contain my curiosity ...
Keith Fenwick
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:46 pm

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by Keith Fenwick »

I have only just seen this photo. The NLS map https://maps.nls.uk/view/82899687 published 1901 shows a double junction between the bridge and the platform. And LGRP10110 shows the same double junction in a photo with a couple of LMS locos. I think that rules out Crieff Junction. The platform has been extended in the HST photo.

My initial two observations were that all the carriages were of uniform dark colour and that the signals had wooden posts with arms with circular dots rather than the normal square - the latter needs to be verified from the original plate as it is indistinct, but dots were a Midland peculiarity. There are also points beyond the bridge - see the point rodding disappearing in that direction. There could have been a trailing crossover beyond the bridge. The facing signal on the right hand side would control movements from the third track on the right. There are telegraph wires on both sides of the line. The ones on the right could be for the road which crosses the line.

My initial thought was that this is a train on the Midland Railway based on the signals and the coaches. But I am not saying that is correct.
Keith
Graham R
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:44 am

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by Graham R »

Yes maybe we are guilty of jumping to conclusions. However, the earlier-dated survey also on the NLS website shows no double junction, only a trailing connection under the bridge, which would match the photo better. But I agree the signals are a further issue for debate. Supposing for a moment they are the original Scottish Central signals, do we know who the SCR’s signal contractor was?

Can anyone pinpoint a date when Crieff Junction’s layout changed?

Regards
Graham
Keith Fenwick
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:46 pm

Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by Keith Fenwick »

I had not looked at the earlier map but agree the layout matches. The plaform does not appear to be so long, but possibly the platform was extended and the signal resited as a result.
Keith
jimwatt2mm
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Re: Another "where is this" query

Post by jimwatt2mm »

Keith Fenwick wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:12 pm
My initial two observations were that all the carriages were of uniform dark colour and that the signals had wooden posts with arms with circular dots rather than the normal square - the latter needs to be verified from the original plate as it is indistinct, but dots were a Midland peculiarity. .............

My initial thought was that this is a train on the Midland Railway based on the signals and the coaches. But I am not saying that is correct.
Keith
Sorry to disagree with your observations Keith, but enlarging the photo by hovering the mouse over it, I see the signals as having white or black rectangles, certainly not dots, and I can definitely discern that the upper panels of the coaches are a lighter colour. Also, the loco has 'C.R' to the left of the drawhook.

As I said in my post of 10th October above, it looks very much like a 'Dundee Bogie', having just read about them in David Hamilton's excellent book.

Regarding Graham's comment on wooden posts, the photo of Friarton, Perth, dated as 'around 1890', on p256 of Jim S's signalling book shows wooden posts exclusively.

Jim W
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