Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

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lindsay_g
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by lindsay_g »

Hi all,

Whilst waiting for the outside workshop to heat up earlier this evening to carry on with the built of an 812, I whiled away the minutes by checking over a Class 171 etch produced by John Boyle a number of years ago (1981 to be exact). I'd previously drawn up the engine's outline from a copy of a GA (provided by Mike Williams) in the Silhouette Cutter's software (for reasons that I'll report on sometime possibly) so tonight compared all the main parts against a print from the software.

With the 812 there are a good number of time-consuming alterations I've had to make to bring it nearer the prototype (again that might form the basis of another thread) and I suppose I was expecting the same from the 171 etch. However, I have to say that I'm mightily impressed with the accuracy of the etch. I haven't checked over every single detail but the outline of all the main parts would seem to be spot on. I'm now left itching to get on and turn these etched parts into an engine. It looks as if it should all go together rather quickly and form the basis of a lovely model of an attractive little engine.

By now, you might be starting to wonder why I am I telling you all this. Well, it strikes me that there might be a few members out there, and a number of modellers beyond, that wouldn't mind getting stuck into one of these models. And the etch, or at least the artwork(?) for it, could well have been passed on to the current owner of all things Decent Models (our erstwhile David Elvy) who might be tempted into resurrecting the etch if demand was there.

Perhaps we should await the thoughts of David before a few fire of responses saying they'd be interested and raising their own and others' expectations. However, positive responses might encourage David to look at what might be possible. What I can say at this stage is that, to date, there has only been an etch provided so it's not a kit but a huge aid towards building the model. As I say, the etch looks pretty damn accurate which should make construction of the body simple (thoughts from previous builders from this etch could help). There was no chassis with the etch but there is a milled chassis (and bogie, I think) available from Allan Gibson Workshop (as are the driving wheels) which again is pretty accurate (one wee bit askew). The main items beyond that to complete are the fittings (chimney, dome, clacks, buffers, etc) some of which are available elsewhere. I haven't checked on the availability of the solid bogie wheels (I got mine courtesy of Jim Summers as well as the etch - notice how many CRA members I'm name dropping? Let's go for one more - perhaps 3D printing by Jim Guthrie could provide any missing fittings). Gearboxes and motor from High Level Kits will allow everything to sit easily within the boiler/tank area.

Seems to me that within the Society we could bring another possibility to the market place.

Lindsay
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by jimwatt2mm »

John was kind enough to have this etch (along with others) shot down to 2mm scale for me in 8 thou brass. I'm on grandparent duties at the moment and am out this evening, but will post a photo and details later.

Jim W
dumb buffer
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by dumb buffer »

Bonnybridge RM May 91--2.jpg
Bonnybridge RM May 91--2.jpg (85.65 KiB) Viewed 21958 times
It brings back memories...… The loco was scratchbuilt in about 1990, and oddly enough used frames by John Boyle. I don't know whether the loco etches from him were available at that time, but I scratchbuilt the loco. It had a Portescap motor, and couldn't pull the skin off the proverbial pudding for lack of weight. The coaches were built by Jim Summers from some of the first six wheel etches available.
I have a more recent set of etches in my round tuit box.

Allan F
Dave John
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:42 am

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Dave John »

If the artwork is about and someone decided to etch a batch I would be happy to purchase one.

Gets the tally going.
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by jimwatt2mm »

As promised, a shot of my 171 class built from etches from John's artwork, reduced to 2MM scale on 8thou brass.
173 web.jpg
173 web.jpg (62.56 KiB) Viewed 21878 times
Sorry for the fuzzy photo, it's a crop from a larger one.

The driving wheels are from the 2MM Scale Association as are the gears and bearings while the bogie wheels were made for me by the late Pete Wright. It is powered by a Branchlines Minimotor (sadly no longer available) and is DCC fitted. The motor fills most of the cab, but in my book a model loco with a cab full of motor is better than no model loco at all! Boiler fittings and buffers are turned from brass or steel on y B & D drill.

She will comfortably handle 3 of John's Drummond 4 wheeled coaches and a scratchbuilt 6-wheeler.

Jim W
Jim Summers
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Jim Summers »

Well, for the record, here is my model, which as you will see pre-dated Jim Mac's book on liveries.
It was a long time ago, and I would like to think I could do a better chimney on my lathe now, but there is a story behind that one, but for another day.

This picture shows it keeping questionable company on "Blackston Jn.", which we ran a few weeks ago after a long time. My 171 seemed to behave tolerably after all the years of inactivity. It is fitted with a Portescap.

JimS
171 reduced.jpg
171 reduced.jpg (166.11 KiB) Viewed 21863 times
David Elvy
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by David Elvy »

Lindsay et all,

I've been a bit slower than I had intended in getting some etches done, I'll add the 171 to the list for January 2019.

David
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Graham Tipple »

I was planning to build one so would value a set of etches if they can be done.
Steve Parsons
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Steve Parsons »

It's one on my to do list so pop my name on the list please.
David Elvy
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:26 am

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by David Elvy »

I haven’t yet seen the 4mm etch but the etch with the 7mm chassis has from memory 5 different chassis on the same etch, would folk be wanting the full etch sheet or just the etches for the 171?

David
Steve Parsons
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:01 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Steve Parsons »

Just the basic 171 etch for me please David.
Graham Tipple
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:16 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Graham Tipple »

What are the others?
Jim Summers
Posts: 876
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Jim Summers »

My recollection - and my memory doesn't improve - is that John Boyle did the 4mm etch for the late Duncan Burton, and I actually got his example, as well as one of my own. It did not look as if it had been designed to fit on a larger etching tool. I don't think it was ever on sale as part of Decent Kits, but, as ever, I am open to correction.

JimS
lindsay_g
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by lindsay_g »

I'll add the little info I have to the above.

When rejuvenating the Modelling the Caledonian list a few years ago I received lists from John Boyle, which resulted in several phone conversations with John to catalogue accurately everything he had and these were followed up with having the resultant list QA'd by John before the first rejuvenated Modelling the Caledonian was finally published (this reminds me that I should establish whether the present list needs to be brought up to date!!). In that list, there were entries for a class 171 in both 7mm and 4mm but the latter was an etch only (code CR4022B whatever that might be worth). So, as far as 4mm was concerned it would seem that the 171 was never produced as a kit but the etch was available for purchase.

I acquired, via a bring and buy, a part completed 171 plus a number of untouched items of the etch and included were chassis and bogie sides. I've always assumed the chassis and bogie parts were milled items from the Allan Gibson Workshop range (still available - code LM1-174). I may be wrong, they may have come from John Boyle originally, but they do look akin to other Allan Gibson items. My guess would be that the 171 etch available from John was the body only. Perhaps others might be able to say what their recollections are.

Having said all that, my optimism that there is something worth resurrecting here has resulted in only three positive responses - I'd actually add my name as a fourth just to get a full pristine etch - but that hardly makes it worth David E's time in establishing what is there and what might be possible. Pity, because as I said initially I'm pretty sure that this etch plus most other parts available elsewhere will readily build into a lovely little model. Some time soon I will get stuck into build and report on it (once I get an 812 mostly out of the way).

Cheers,

Lindsay
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by jimwatt2mm »

I'm trying to recall what all was on the sheet John got shot down for me from 4mm scale. I think that as well as the 171 class body there was a CR covered Carriage truck (2 etches each with half the parts), an Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway luggage van (one half etch) and a Paris et Orleans Railway coach which had originally been to 3.5mm scale. I still have the carriage truck etches and the E & G one, but can only build one side and one end of the latter and run it on one set of wheels!! Must get round to building the CCT

HTH

Jim W
jasp
Posts: 476
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by jasp »

Steve Duckworth built my 171 from John’s etches.
I have asked him to post some comments on the build which he will do after Christmas
Jim P
Dave Lochrie
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Dave Lochrie »

I would also be interested in a set of etchings to build as the later full bunker variant, to match the toolbox version I have part built, the etchings include both. My records of John's film list dated 2009 (which David E may have amended) shows the 171 on CR4022 which also included the Drummond CCT, the E&G Luggage Van and the 45ft Full Brake Body, but this last is suspect as the 45ft full brake was also included on a sheet with the 28ft ,Fish Fruit and Milk and Luggage Vans.However many of the other combinations on the list, I know are correct so...
I have a photocopy of the fret at 7mm which I used to start some instructions, but John lost the brass masters I had had specially commissioned, so the project floundered. I will scan this when I am back home next week, so people can see what is included (if David E is happy for me to do that).
When looking at the artwork one thing is immediately obvious in that the artwork was not produced by John himself. The lettering is computer generated rather than Johns familiar hand written script which makes his work so individual. The 171 was initially run on nickle silver rather than brass, in 4mm at least. I don't have access to my records from the CRA's precursor -the Caledonian Consortium -but my memory suggests the artwork was done by a David (Matthews?) with the involvement of the late Peter James.

Seasons Greetings
Dave L
jimwatt2mm
Posts: 675
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by jimwatt2mm »

It looks to me as though CR4022 is the sheet that was reduced to 2mm scale for me as I have a 45 ft full brake from an etch of John's so it must have been on that same sheet. I don't have the items on the other sheet mentioned.

Jim W
Argos
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:53 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Argos »

I would be interested in a 2mm etch if this could be arranged?

I currently have a half built chassis and a couple of body companies cut out of brass, so a long way to go!

An etch would be a real help.

Thanks

Angus
tony brenchley
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:36 am

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by tony brenchley »

I had a 171 etch from John Boyle that was in brass and body only. This was surplus to my own requirements and I traded it to Mike Williams a few years ago. I don't remember John telling me of anybody else's involvement in this project.

I guess Mike still has the etch and if anybody wants to see it Mike could be persuaded to scan and put on the Forum.

Tony
dumb buffer
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by dumb buffer »

I just looked out my copy of the etch. It is by John Boyle, not Decent Models, and is dated 1981. I see I also acquired a set of wheels and axles, and coupling rods from various sources. The main frames were from Caley Coaches, but manufactured, I think, by Alan Gibson. I recall that when I built my model the main issues were the dome and chimney. I pinched the chimney from an Anchoridge Kit for the 0-4-0ST, but I don't know where the dome came from. I didn't have the capacity to turn things in those days.

It would be nice to see more of these attractive wee engines around, and I think they would be easier to build nowadays, given the improved availability of compact gearboxes and small motors.

Allan F
Dave Lochrie
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:38 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by Dave Lochrie »

Rather surprisingly my memory was correct regarding the originator of the artwork for the 171 Class. I found correspondence from 1981 with a David Matthews, who was at that time a Caledonian Consortium member (a sort of precursor to the CRA) living in Cheadle in Cheshire. I don't recall ever meeting David, so don't know very much about him but Tony B knew everyone in the consortium so he may remember his background.
David had obtained a set of GAs from OPC and intended producing a kit, but needed some additional information, some of which the Late Peter James was able to provide, having completed a scratch built example in EM a few years earlier. This was in the early days of etching for model railways, John Boyle in 1981 was only producing single etched parts for carriages (like the Trevor Charlton parts, where you had to drill and fret out the windows by hand), but John must have had the contact with the etcher.

The artwork is dated 1981 with John's name only, the reason they were not branded "Decent Models" is that Decent only came into existence in 1982 with the release of John's first complete kit the Drummond 23'6" PBV.
CR 171 Etch copy.jpg
CR 171 Etch copy.jpg (154.13 KiB) Viewed 20894 times
The artwork is more like later CAD assisted artwork, nothing like the hand drawn style associated with John Boyle. I will ask him if he remembers the background details.
The initial batch was produced (in 4mm at least) in NS sheet, but later runs (in 4mm & 7mm) were produced in brass, when the artwork had been combined with other kits to save costs.As mentioned it included alternative cab sides to allow construction of both the original 12 engines from 1884/86 with the short bunker and toolbox, and the second 1889 and third 1891 batches with the bunkers extended to full length.
171 Class Instruction drawing.jpg
171 Class Instruction drawing.jpg (36.38 KiB) Viewed 20894 times
Alan correctly remembered that the milled chassis was produced by Alan Gibson, the etched 6'4" coupling rods were done by Rod Neep of Perseverance (who by sheer co-incidence had just bought John's old flat in Cheltenham), Mike Sharman did the wheels, including the solid bogie wheels, buffers by Slaters, and as mentioned earlier, I commissioned someone (possibly a favour from Ian Middleditch) to turn a master for the chimney and dome (which John somehow managed to loose), and you still had to cut and roll your own boiler!
It was what we now term a "scratch aid", and served as a good example of how not to project manage, and never developed as a full kit as by that time most of the limited potential market had already purchased a set of etchings, and had sufficient resources to fill the gaps, themselves.

That's the history part, so what of the future?
Dave L
lindsay_g
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by lindsay_g »

Whilst awaiting parts for build of an 812, I’ve progressed planning of a 171 build and have decided to move its build up the priority list. So the future of one 171 from this etch is looking good. If I then document the build on this forum that might help focus attention on whether there is possible future supply of the etch.

Lindsay
jasp
Posts: 476
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:40 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by jasp »

My recollection is that I got chimney and dome from London Road Models from the, very similar, Drummond NBR 4-4-0, I think.
Bogie wheels were from Jim S
Jim P
lindsay_g
Posts: 397
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: Resurrecting a Class 171 Etch?

Post by lindsay_g »

I wrote to LRM only yesterday regarding the possibility of a chimney. I got a dome from them originally intended for a Jumbo, except I sent the etch back to Worsley works as it was awful. 2 sets of clacks arrived from different sources, also the whistle. Fillers are presently outstanding as far as boiler fittings is concerned. Will mention all this in detail if I get a thread going.

I also got wheels from Jim S, he must be a bit of a squirrel for such items. This might be a problem area. Lack of suitable coupling rods is also a pain - will make a suggestion in due course.

Lindsay
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